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Clint Martin

I'm trying Windows 10 again.

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So far I see zero performance gains, but so far Cakewalk is working. I could never get Sonar to work with Windows 10, which I suspect was a Presonus driver issue.

Anything special I should turn off?

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Im a Windows 10 user and the only thing i did when i installed the PVC with win 10 on it is to make sure all my USB hubs never go to sleep. That's it! with today PC's, there is no need to tweak PC's and turn off things. They are plenty strong enough to handle it.

The days of turning off antiviral software and disabling things have been gone for a decade,if you have a semi newer PC

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With Win10, there are numerous things you want to disable.

  • Automatic Updates
  • Performance throttling
  • Power Management
  • Fast Startup 
  • Privacy Settings

The more you're pushing the machine (especially at the smallest ASIO buffer sizes), the more important the OS configuration.

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I found that my Windows 10 systems were better behaved after I permanently turned off realtime Windows Defender scanning, but Microsoft definitely do not make it easy for users of Home versions to do that.

If I tell you that it requires enabling a tool that Microsoft ships as hidden by default and then using that tool to turn off a "safety feature" that Microsoft won't otherwise allow you to turn off and you've already started Googling how to do it before finishing this sentence, then you're a good candidate. 😁

You have to enable Group Policy Editor, which ships hidden on Home versions of Windows 10, and then use it to turn off realtime scanning, which Windows rather arrogantly informs the user that it will only allow the user to do temporarily before turning it back on.

When confronted with this message I took it upon myself to restore the natural order of User and Tool in my home and did a spot o'Googlin'.

There's also a registry hack that will do it without all the Group Policy Editor business, but it's nice to have Group Policy Editor available.

Do this at your own risk; so far the only annoyance I encountered was a user on this forum who implied that it was somehow unethical to configure OS features from a command line or using regedit. Or something. It wasn't entirely clear what he was on about.

 Anyway, if you believe that it's unethical or against the terms of your license agreement to use anything but a GUI to configure your OS, then you should pass.

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Going from Win 7/8.1 to Win 10 the first thing I noticed was slightly lower latency.  The only "tweaks" I have are Fast Startup is turned off (I have an SSD and its fast bootup) , the power plan is set to High Performance and I never "turn off" (sleep) the PC.  The monitor is "turned off" after 2 hours.   I disable the internet (NIC) when doing any recording or mixing.

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13 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

You have to enable Group Policy Editor, which ships hidden on Home versions of Windows 10

A few weeks ago I enabled the Group Policy Editor on my Home edition PC (not my DAW) to play with it, but yesterday I got upgraded to 1809 Build 17763.292, and -- surprise! -- it's no longer enabled.

I don't really care, but I believe MS polices this with such rigor because in the profit-based community, if you are a "pro," you simply have to pay more, and if you are an "amateur," you simply get less.  I ran into a version of this when I started my half-inch 8-track studio in the 70s, in the same neighborhood as Gold Star, Sunwest, Wally Heider, etc. With my Tascam 8-track I wasn't paying the price required to be a "pro," so the guys at those places mocked me for using "home" equipment, and wouldn't speak to me at AES shows. At least in that case I got the last laugh, because I was still booking sessions after they all went out of business. Pretty sure none of those schmoes would have been able to tell the difference between the quality they were producing, and mine.

These days I don't have paying clients, so I leave Window Defender running, and a bunch of other background services that I should probably turn off, and I rarely have a glitch in my projects. 

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Interesting, Larry, mine is still there, but then I was already on 1809 when I enabled it.

Perhaps major updates are when the Microsoft Safety Police check to make sure we haven't done anything that might get us into trouble and nudge us back onto the right path.

And if you pay extra for the Pro version, they ease up on the nudges, because they know you're a Pro, see?

Well, the thing is, I may not be a "Pro" in Microsoft's eyes, but I'm a punk and a hacker. Characteristic of both of those cultures is a love of getting things to do what they're not supposed to do, and a distaste for being kept away from things.

Big props and good on ya for running your 8-track studio in Hollywood. I bet you got to work with cooler clients, too, rather than babysitting coked-out has-beens.

I never went all-in with punk musically, but I embraced the anti-elitism and DIY ethics part of it (and still do). If the mainstream scene won't let you in, start your own scene. Everybody gets to record, everybody gets to play. All-ages, everybody gets to come to the show. Learn as you go.

When I was 21, I was a broke dude in the early '80's working full-time at low-paying jobs and living in tiny apartments, scraping to keep my car running to get to work. I wanted more than anything to work at a recording studio, learn how to be a recording and mix engineer. I had some background installing and repairing audio installations from working summer jobs at a couple of theme parks so I knew how to solder, understood impedance, etc.

I went to a couple of studios in the town where I lived, Santa Barbara, which had a few studios that were solidly booked, being near LA. Just to talk to someone about whether they needed anyone to work on their gear or what have you, see if anyone had any advice about entry level jobs in the recording industry. The sheer friggin' arrogance and dismissiveness I encountered from these bearded fscks was amazing. It boiled down to if they liked me I could come in and make coffee and sweep up for no pay, but they already had a kid who was doing that, so maybe check back later.

And they didn't say this nicely, either.

So you basically had to be someone who was living off daddy's money and could afford to work for free for a year or two on the chance that these hippie dickheads might start paying you. Yeah, no. Even if I could, I wouldn't want to be part of that culture.

I said screw all of that and bought Craig's first book and never looked back.😉 Started recording to my home stereo cassette deck, then a cassette 4-track.

Now I can track 16 channels of 96/24 at once in my dining room on hardware and software that cost me, in toto, about $300.

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On 2/11/2019 at 9:56 AM, Jim Roseberry said:

With Win10, there are numerous things you want to disable.

  • Automatic Updates
  • Performance throttling
  • Power Management
  • Fast Startup 
  • Privacy Settings

The more you're pushing the machine (especially at the smallest ASIO buffer sizes), the more important the OS configuration.

1. Not possible on Windows Home. Can only defer (not disable) on Pro (feature updates for a year, and a month for security uodates).

2. Only do this on a laptop if it never leaves the charger - in which case why not just get a desktop 😛

3. See above. 

4.  This can cause issues sometimes, but typically with software with a very old code base. Never had an issue with it (or with Cakewalk). I've never turned this off, personally.

5.  This is the one thing to look over. But, with Windows Home, you are very limited in what you can accomplish. Security headline are 85% FUD, anyways. Irrelevant if the PC isn't internet connected. Registry entries are vestigial in Windows SKUs that don't support the feature. They exist, but do nothing. So what websites tell you to do are often ineffectual. Microsoft is smarter. 

---

Things I recommend:

- Disable Background Apps for all but staples (like Microsoft Edge, Groove Music, etc.) - this affects UWP apps only. 

- Enable Long Paths

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On 2/12/2019 at 5:10 AM, Starship Krupa said:

I found that my Windows 10 systems were better behaved after I permanently turned off realtime Windows Defender scanning, but Microsoft definitely do not make it easy for users of Home versions to do that.

If I tell you that it requires enabling a tool that Microsoft ships as hidden by default and then using that tool to turn off a "safety feature" that Microsoft won't otherwise allow you to turn off and you've already started Googling how to do it before finishing this sentence, then you're a good candidate. 😁

You have to enable Group Policy Editor, which ships hidden on Home versions of Windows 10, and then use it to turn off realtime scanning, which Windows rather arrogantly informs the user that it will only allow the user to do temporarily before turning it back on.

When confronted with this message I took it upon myself to restore the natural order of User and Tool in my home and did a spot o'Googlin'.

There's also a registry hack that will do it without all the Group Policy Editor business, but it's nice to have Group Policy Editor available.

Do this at your own risk; so far the only annoyance I encountered was a user on this forum who implied that it was somehow unethical to configure OS features from a command line or using regedit. Or something. It wasn't entirely clear what he was on about.

 Anyway, if you believe that it's unethical or against the terms of your license agreement to use anything but a GUI to configure your OS, then you should pass.

It's easy to turn off. It just turns itself back on after a span of time or on reboot. Turning it off permanently is not easy, no. But it's simple enough to toggle, so not a biggie. 

They needed to enforce this because the millions of porn addicts don't care if they send their mothers malware. Sometimes a heavy hand is best, and no point in doing so if they can so easily disable it...

Windows 10 definitely performs better than 7, while being a lot more efficient. The code is definitely tighter and Microsoft has decreased bloat significantly. 

A lot of ancient code is being updated, replaced, or  culled entirely. 

Edited by SomeGuy

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I have always updated going back to the DOS days. With Windows 10 Pro I seek out updates and am happy to get them. I look at is as Windows being constantly improved and made better. Bugs are address. New features are added. Soon we will be getting a huge increase in how many plugins can be loaded. 

For more information on this read this FLS Slot Limit Increase.

 I find with every update Windows gets better. Problems get resolved and useful features are added. The notion that these updates are intrusive or a burden I find untrue. Staying current is a good thing to do. Freezing ones OS so that it becomes out of date makes it harder for developers to update their applications to take advantage the new  abilities of the OS.  MS tries to keep as much compatibility as is possible. But there is a limit to how this will impact future improvements and greater security.  We are not paying for all these updates so I can't see a downside. 

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50 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

1. Not possible on Windows Home. Can only defer (not disable) on Pro (feature updates for a year, and a month for security uodates).

2. Only do this on a laptop if it never leaves the charger - in which case why not just get a desktop 😛

3. See above. 

4.  This can cause issues sometimes, but typically with software with a very old code base. Never had an issue with it (or with Cakewalk). I've never turned this off, personally.

5.  This is the one thing to look over. But, with Windows Home, you are very limited in what you can accomplish. Security headline are 85% FUD, anyways. Irrelevant if the PC isn't internet connected. Registry entries are vestigial in Windows SKUs that don't support the feature. They exist, but do nothing. So what websites tell you to do are often ineffectual. Microsoft is smarter. 

---

Things I recommend:

- Disable Background Apps for all but staples (like Microsoft Edge, Groove Music, etc.) - this affects UWP apps only. 

- Enable Long Paths

@SomeGuy, I've been building DAWs professionally for 25 years.  😉

I'm well aware of not being able to disable Windows Updates with the Home version of Win10.  That's why we recommend the Pro version.

If you have a laptop running off battery-power... and you allow full Performance and Power throttling, it's DAW performance will be terrible.

  • CPU throttling causes high DPC Latency
  • CPU core parking (at the wrong time) can cause glitches/dropouts
  • Power-Management shutting down USB Root Hubs can cause attached MIDI controllers and Audio interfaces to lose connection.

Regarding Fast Startup, apparently you've not seen the bizarre issues it can cause (corrupt and lost data - especially when dual-booting - even when the OS installs are completely isolated).  We've disable this setting on hundreds of machines... and it's never cause an issue. 

Apps constantly running in the background (especially numerous apps)... and "phoning-home" information to Microsoft is not what you're looking for in a well-configured clean/lean DAW.

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13 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Big props and good on ya for running your 8-track studio in Hollywood. I bet you got to work with cooler clients, too, rather than babysitting coked-out has-beens.

We did the original demoes for the "Los Angeles" album by X. The album that was eventually released sounds pretty much exactly like those demoes. We were one of the first places in town to book punk bands. I think a lot of established places didn't want those dangerous troublemakers trashing their studios and raping the receptionist. Turns out they were mostly nice kids who didn't carry knives and cleaned up the studio after themselves.

No comment on the coked-out has-beens.

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8 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

1. Not possible on Windows Home. Can only defer (not disable) on Pro (feature updates for a year, and a month for security uodates).

Yes, you CAN disable updates for as long as you want on Pro. You just have to know where to find the policy and how to configure it.

HINT: What I am referring to isn't found in Windows update settings, where you can set the deferral. It's a specific policy found in the Group Policy Editor [Configure Automatic Updates].

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8 hours ago, John said:

I have always updated going back to the DOS days. With Windows 10 Pro I seek out updates and am happy to get them. I look at is as Windows being constantly improved and made better. Bugs are address. New features are added. Soon we will be getting a huge increase in how many plugins can be loaded. 

For more information on this read this FLS Slot Limit Increase.

 I find with every update Windows gets better. Problems get resolved and useful features are added. The notion that these updates are intrusive or a burden I find untrue. Staying current is a good thing to do. Freezing ones OS so that it becomes out of date makes it harder for developers to update their applications to take advantage the new  abilities of the OS.  MS tries to keep as much compatibility as is possible. But there is a limit to how this will impact future improvements and greater security.  We are not paying for all these updates so I can't see a downside. 

While it is generally good to be up to date with quality and security updates, Microsoft QA testing has been lacking with Windows 10 feature updates in the semi-annual channel (Targeted) major version updates.

MS releases the newest release with a "Targeted" designation. This is generally what you will get if you do nothing to defer feature updates. This is the release that business IT teams need to pilot and test with, before they actually begin broad rollouts within their organization.

After a period of time based on business feedback and any necessary bug fixes, MS will designate the update as ready for "Broad" release, and this is when the update is "ready for business".

So depending on what you use your PC for and how critical it is for you to avoid any disruption, you may want to take a cue from the IT pros that do it for a living, and wait until the update has been fully "baked".

If it is just a hobby, and you make good backups, it is probably nothing to be too concerned about. Just be aware that you are a virtual beta tester for roughly the first 6 months of a new release, until it gets the full designation of "semi-annual channel", ready for broad deployment.

Deferring the major updates for 6 months seems reasonable to me, given these facts of how Microsoft is operating these days.

Quote

Targeted deployment refers to the phase immediately following the release of a new Windows version when it is recommended to conduct your organization's piloting process and to begin deployments to select devices, such as those with the most modern chipsets and capabilities. Surface devices make excellent candidates for these targeted deployments.

Broad deployment refers to the phase that follows targeted deployment, where your organizations' pilots and targeted deployments have provided successful feedback and Windows has been vetted for deployment to most or all of your organization's devices.[/quote]

Edited by abacab

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2 hours ago, abacab said:

MS releases the newest release with a "Targeted" designation. This is generally what you will get if you do nothing to defer feature updates. This is the release that business IT teams need to pilot and test with, before they actually begin broad rollouts within their organization.

After a period of time based on business feedback and any necessary bug fixes, MS will designate the update as ready for "Broad" release, and this is when the update is "ready for business".

Where do I look to find out which releases are which, and when a targeted release turns into a broad release?

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23 minutes ago, Larry Jones said:

Where do I look to find out which releases are which, and when a targeted release turns into a broad release?

I don't have a handy link to that specific info, as that appears it is always a moving target. There are a few blogs that cover that info as it becomes available. But here is some related info.

I believe you can set Windows 10 Pro to defer until the semi-annual channel (broad release) is available.

Windows lifecycle fact sheet

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

Search product lifecycle

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/search?alpha=windows 10

Quick guide to Windows as a service

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-quick-start

Edited by abacab

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On 2/13/2019 at 4:54 PM, abacab said:

Yes, you CAN disable updates for as long as you want on Pro. You just have to know where to find the policy and how to configure it.

HINT: What I am referring to isn't found in Windows update settings, where you can set the deferral. It's a specific policy found in the Group Policy Editor [Configure Automatic Updates].

Many of the settings in Group Policy editor are vestigial.  Many don't work.  This has been common information for years, now.  It worked for like the first 8 months of Windows 10, but Microsoft disabled a lot of those afterwards - in the first feature update.  This includes the Pro SKU.  You can defer for 1 year on Pro, and then it will force installation of Feature updates.  You can defer security updates for 1 month, and then you'll have to enable it.

Many of us have kept up on this.  I suggest people interested in these things keep an eye on sites like WindowsCentral.com to be on the up and up for these things.

The unlimited deferral only works on Enterprise and Educational SKUs - not Home and Pro.

And Microsoft has been fairly forthcoming about these changes.

We used to use Group Policy Settings to disable things like Telemetry, as well 😛  That got "nerfed," too.

Example?  

What you see in Group Policy Editor literally doesn't matter.  What matters is whether or not Microsoft has designed the system to care about that setting for the Windows SKU you're running 😛

It's pretty obvious that Microsoft can - easily - set the OS to ignore a Group Policy Setting for your particular Windows SKU, and they have done this for dozens of them.  They are not dumb enough to pass up the Windows update settings, and they definitely haven't done so...  It was confirmed like... years ago that this was nerfed.  Google it, if you must...

Edited by SomeGuy

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On 2/13/2019 at 9:25 AM, Jim Roseberry said:

@SomeGuy, I've been building DAWs professionally for 25 years.  😉

I'm well aware of not being able to disable Windows Updates with the Home version of Win10.  That's why we recommend the Pro version.

If you have a laptop running off battery-power... and you allow full Performance and Power throttling, it's DAW performance will be terrible.

  • CPU throttling causes high DPC Latency
  • CPU core parking (at the wrong time) can cause glitches/dropouts
  • Power-Management shutting down USB Root Hubs can cause attached MIDI controllers and Audio interfaces to lose connection.

Regarding Fast Startup, apparently you've not seen the bizarre issues it can cause (corrupt and lost data - especially when dual-booting - even when the OS installs are completely isolated).  We've disable this setting on hundreds of machines... and it's never cause an issue. 

Apps constantly running in the background (especially numerous apps)... and "phoning-home" information to Microsoft is not what you're looking for in a well-configured clean/lean DAW.

1.  You shouldn't be doing serious work on a Laptop not connected to power, the battery life will be terrible; especially if you have heavy projects.  I don't think that is even a concern.  It's more common sense.  I guess usable in crunch time... but you'll be constantly cycling settings to avoid massive drainage when not producing music on the same machine, when it isn't connected to power... 

2.  I don't dual boot my machines.  Fast Start Up hasn't caused any issues for me.  When I did dual boot, I used different drives for each OS.  I stopped dual booting when Laptops moved to UEFI, and I don't personally see a point in dual booting different versions of Windows on the same machine, personally. 

3.  That's not the way Telemetry Works on Windows 10.  There is one Telemetry service that takes telemetry data on the PC, and it sends it to Microsoft at intervals.  Apps don't just constantly phone home.  Use a network inspector on your PC to see.  Telemetry on Windows functions like a mailbox system.  All the apps put their telemetry in the Mailbox (Data Store) and every now and then the mailman (Telemetry Service) takes it to Microsoft.  And let's not get conspiratorial about this stuff... … cause Apple collects telemetry data, as well (as do individual developers - so this often becomes a wild goose chase to find the settings to disable it, if possible).

There are ways to block the ports or the service itself in a firewall, but that doesn't stop it from attempting to send the data to Microsoft.

It's easy to stop these UWP apps from running in the background - you simply go to settings and turn off Background Apps.  This affects all of the UWP apps installed with Windows 10, and from the Windows Store, but not Win32 Apps (i.e. Cakewalk, Pro Tools, etc.)

You cannot shut off the Telemetry Services in Windows 10.  Yes, there are Group Policy Settings there, but like some others, it only works for Enterprise and Educational SKUs.  The only thing you can do on Windows 10 Home and Pro is switch between Basic and Full.  Turning the Group Policy Setting to disable the telemetry is literally equivalent to setting it to Basic on Home and ProThis was changed by Microsoft in 2016.

Edited by SomeGuy

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