Jump to content
synkrotron

Why is Cakewalk by Bandlab free?

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, pwalpwal said:

budget budget budget... oh how i laughed when macs switched to intel porcessros, and then to some hack-of-linux as an os...

Actually Mac OS is not Linux. It is now a certified UNIX, unlike Linux, which is (still UNIX-like) just a hack of UNIX.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/08/mac-os-x-leopard-receives-unix-03-certification/

Quote

Mac OS X 10.5 on the Intel platform is a "true" UNIX OS, rather than just being UNIX-like.

Edited by abacab
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Linux for audio. I like the idea but I rather give MS some $ I don't have the time to tinker.   Just my 2¢'s
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, InstrEd said:

 Linux for audio. I like the idea but I rather give MS some $ I don't have the time to tinker.   Just my 2¢'s
 

That discussion of alternatives started yesterday when Craig mentioned the possibility of Microsoft scuttling our Windows DAWs with its push for software in the clouds based services.

I plan on sticking with a Windows desktop OS as long as it works.

Edited by abacab

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reaper now has an official Linux version. That is, not just using Wine, but a true Linux version. One of the big sticking points is the lack of ability to use sound libraries, like East West, Vienna etc. But with their developers, who knows, it may just be a matter of time. If it became really doable, it would be very tempting for me. I already know how to use Reaper and am comfortable with Linux. But my guess is it's years away, if at all. But for those who just want to use synths, it's possible to work now in Reaper Linux. You have to give them credit for trying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

It's because Instruments, Effects Packages, Plug-Ins, and features like AAF support are worth money too.  Free is nice, but it's a pretty barebones package.  You really need to add a lot on top  of it to approach what those other DAWs offer out of the box... and many upstarts won't need to buy anything after buying those other DAWs; at least not for a while.  The value-adds are often more than worth the increase in price.

Melodyne Essential is $99, by itself.  Most Paid DAWs bundle this.

Instruments and Effects Packages can easily run into the $200+ range if you get something as good as what MAGIX, MOTU, Steinberg, etc. bundle out of the box.

At the end of the day, the price of those DAWs is actually quite small, and "Free" for a bare bones package like CbB isn't really that attractive of a value proposition to many.  People are discriminate with their choices.  It's so easy to do research on these  things, these days, and you also are fighting the momentum other products have in the media (i.e. YouTube, Tech Press, etc.).

SONAR has existed long enough that Professionals who already own all the Plugins, Instruments, etc. that they need have already - largely - settled on a DAW...  SONAR itself, or something else.  I don't think it will get the sort of "DaVinci Resolve" effect people are hoping for because DAWs are still - largely - perpetually licensed (or have that option); and many people don't feel the need to constantly upgrade their software year-over-year; especially on Windows, which has excellent backward/forward application compatibility.  I think  if his was an NLE, it would have been more disruptive.

I also think that it could have been a bit more disruptive on macOS, because that platform actually has more room for competitors "under" the "Standards," compared to Windows.  The Windows application ecosystem is extremely cutthroat, because there are also viable options for people at the lower end of the market for low cost ($150 or less), which deliver a very nice (more complete "out of the box") package.

 

Yes, I understand that.  I'm a "lifer" so I had all those "port over" if you will.  However, with a bit of research one can get a lot of Free or very cheap VST and VSTis these days, including some that came with Sonar.

Ex.  The AAS pugins were basically $1 at plugin boutique.  You can get a free drummer in SSD5 (among others).  The only effects I think I use that were SPLT supplied and not in Bandlab are MB Comp, LP EQ, Adaptive Limiter and CA-2A.  CA-2A was free for anyone for a period of time. 

Each of these has a nearly free alternative in the market.  Though I like Sonar offering better.  The other piece here is the fact people are still paying for DAWs...when Cakewalk is free.  That same money could be invested in Plugs and Instruments that are frankly of better quality than comes in the box (we had to pay ~$500 to get AD and Melodye...we were not talking about a 100 package to get those real features).  

I do have Melodyne Studio 4 (something I never would have bought without the Sonar package and upgrades AND Cakewalk rolling out the integration with the Timeline) that is based on ARA.  

 

 

I'm a big supporter of Davinci Resolve - however it doesnt' have anywhere close to the system compatibility as other NLE.  It is FAR more picky about the computer you put it on if it will actually work and perform properly.  Davinci Resolve won't even open on a computer that I've done Multi-Cam HD productions on with an Old version of PP for many years.  I can run it on a new laptop but it doesnt' even have great playback with a single cam.  Don't get me wrong, if the computer will run it, it is beyond fantastic.  However it has a limited scope of computers the thing will actually work on.  

Edited by Brian Walton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Brian Walton said:

Yes, I understand that.  I'm a "lifer" so I had all those "port over" if you will.  However, with a bit of research one can get a lot of Free or very cheap VST and VSTis these days, including some that came with Sonar.

Ex.  The AAS pugins were basically $1 at plugin boutique.  You can get a free drummer in SSD5 (among others).  The only effects I think I use that were SPLT supplied and not in Bandlab are MB Comp, LP EQ, Adaptive Limiter and CA-2A.  CA-2A was free for anyone for a period of time. 

Each of these has a nearly free alternative in the market.  Though I like Sonar offering better.  The other piece here is the fact people are still paying for DAWs...when Cakewalk is free.  That same money could be invested in Plugs and Instruments that are frankly of better quality than comes in the box (we had to pay ~$500 to get AD and Melodye...we were not talking about a 100 package to get those real features).  

I do have Melodyne Studio 4 (something I never would have bought without the Sonar package and upgrades AND Cakewalk rolling out the integration with the Timeline) that is based on ARA.  

 

 

I'm a big supporter of Davinci Resolve - however it doesnt' have anywhere close to the system compatibility as other NLE.  It is FAR more picky about the computer you put it on if it will actually work and perform properly.  Davinci Resolve won't even open on a computer that I've done Multi-Cam HD productions on with an Old version of PP for many years.  I can run it on a new laptop but it doesnt' even have great playback with a single cam.  Don't get me wrong, if the computer will run it, it is beyond fantastic.  However it has a limited scope of computers the thing will actually work on.  

A lot of those free Effects and Instruments are terrible-to-mediocre.  I'm actually speaking from experience, because Cakewalk being free was initially the big "pull" to me...

However, the "price" is not working out to be much of a competitive advantage since I'll probably have to pay $200 to bolt on AAF support, $150 for Orchestral Instruments (like Garrison Personal Orchestra 5), and then some - even if other DAWs have perfectly serviceable content for my uses.  The "Free" stuff that I've found has been pretty lackluster (worse than a lot of the stuff that is bundled with DAWs), and that's not even touching on things like Cinematic Loops/One Hits/SFX and similar content that is bundled with DAWs, these days (i.e. SONAR Platinum actually bundled a decent amount of this type of content).

So, I'm stuck at a weird situation where I like the interface and the way it's integrated/optimized well for my choice platform... but it might not be worth it in the grand scheme of things because other DAWs come with perfectly usable content out of the box, and it would be a one and done purchase for me at this point.  I'm not very interested in the EDM/Trance/Hip Hop type stuff that is popular, these days  🙂

Plus, having to manage all of those licenses (and probably multiple extra web accounts) vs. one DAW purchase.  Convenience is also a factor, at least for me.

Edited by SomeGuy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they need admin privs to truly know the genius that is Bapu. He's been holding back and they were afraid they might be missing stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, pwalpwal said:

budget budget budget... oh how i laughed when macs switched to intel porcessros, and then to some hack-of-linux as an os...

macOS is a UNIX operating system. It's not hack-of-Linux.  Lol...  And a lot of the value isn't in the core OS, but the layers on top of it.  Those APIs and SDKs don't write themselves...

9 hours ago, pwalpwal said:

could also be an open source culture thing

Companies tried bringing Commercial consumer-market software to the Linux market.  The users [generally] didn't want to pay for it.  So, multiple companies almost killed themselves with "Linux strategies" and not the market has largely been scared off.

9 hours ago, abacab said:

That is where a company like Red Hat killed it in the commercial Linux server space. They provided a standardized version of the server software that enterprises could count on to run their businesses on. And sold support for it.

Server OSes are always LTS, and they are managed differently than consumer machines...  RH made it's money through support, not software sales (despite the fact that RHEL was more expensive than Microsoft Windows).

10 hours ago, synkrotron said:

Know what you mean...

I installed it on an old laptop which originally had Windows XP on it. It was slowly grinding to a halt. So I wiped it and installed Ubuntu on it and gave it a new lease of life. Great for interwebs and e-mail stuff :)

I think I ran Gimp on it too...

XP was designed for hardware from the 99-01 era.  Vista has much higher system requirements, and Windows 7/8/10 basically have the same requirements as Vista.  XP was designed for the type of hardware that would run Windows 2000.  It's going to bottleneck newer windows versions.  I have a low end laptop here (designed for 7) that is slow no matter what OS I put on it.  Ubuntu, Windows 7, Windows 10...  It doesn't matter.  Slow CPUs, RAM, Storage, etc. is going to be slow.

Most people who say installing Linux gave the PC a new lease on life are really describing a placebo effect.  Linux has system requirements too, and unless you strip it down incredibly and run a low-requirement desktop environment (which Unity, GNOME, and KDE all are/were not), it would run just as badly on that slow hardware.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/5/2019 at 11:10 AM, pwalpwal said:

did you try  all the various "compatibilty" options in win10?

Yes, and unfortunately it didn't work. The newer buggy version works, so it's Ctrl+S every minute or two. But it's orphaned with no support so it's way past it's 'use by' date.

But I have everything saved in both MTPro and MIDI type 1 format so as long as MIDI files are standard, I won't lose anything.

Insights and incites by Notes

Edited by Notes_Norton
addition - afterthought

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

A lot of those free Effects and Instruments are terrible-to-mediocre.  I'm actually speaking from experience, because Cakewalk being free was initially the big "pull" to me...

However, the "price" is not working out to be much of a competitive advantage since I'll probably have to pay $200 to bolt on AAF support, $150 for Orchestral Instruments (like Garrison Personal Orchestra 5), and then some - even if other DAWs have perfectly serviceable content for my uses.  The "Free" stuff that I've found has been pretty lackluster (worse than a lot of the stuff that is bundled with DAWs), and that's not even touching on things like Cinematic Loops/One Hits/SFX and similar content that is bundled with DAWs, these days (i.e. SONAR Platinum actually bundled a decent amount of this type of content).

So, I'm stuck at a weird situation where I like the interface and the way it's integrated/optimized well for my choice platform... but it might not be worth it in the grand scheme of things because other DAWs come with perfectly usable content out of the box, and it would be a one and done purchase for me at this point.  I'm not very interested in the EDM/Trance/Hip Hop type stuff that is popular, these days  🙂

Plus, having to manage all of those licenses (and probably multiple extra web accounts) vs. one DAW purchase.  Convenience is also a factor, at least for me.

You are doing it wrong if Cakewalk + $500 doesn't get you everything you need to produce good music.

$500 is the tier these other "comperable" products are at that include real content.  All of this is better than what comes with any DAW under $300.  

  https://vis.versilstudios.com/vsco-community.html

http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/sound_samples

https://samplesfrommars.com/products/all-products-from-mars

https://stevenslatedrums.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011778653-SSD5-Free-Win-Installation

 

This was $40

https://samplesfrommars.com/products/all-products-from-mars

Cinematic Loops/OneHits/Etc that you get with Platinum.  Well if you don't produce EDM/Trance/Hip hop, not sure how much real value they have then.  When I went through the SPLT content, that is what I kept thinking this stuff is primarily usable for that type of music produciton.  You can get that kind of content for $5 by buying a Computer Music Magazine digitally and then downloading the content.  Do that with the right purchases and for about $30 you could have a collection of content that is far larger than what comes included.  LOTs of Free/Cheap loop/sample content out there.  that $5 purchase will also get you a bunch of Pro Quality Effects and Instruments.  

While there is a lot of Free Junk out there, plenty of stuff that is just as good as the paid products.  The AAS stuff I mentioned is top tier and was available for a period of time for literally $1.

 

If you get such a package with a DAW it will be tied to that DAW or it will require another authorization method.  

 

Lack of AAF support (or good support) is common with a number of DAWs, it isn't just a Cakewalk limitaiton.  I work with video a lot and frankly never need it for the work I do.  As for transfering projects to other DAWs, the pros I work with don't care about it and just want unprocessed tracks for mixing/mastering if I'm sending it out for that purpose.  

All depends on the content you are looking for.  If you are not willing to do any real research on the market, then yes, paying money for a package might be a good option (and Sonar was one of the BEST paid options for the content it came with).  Just like people buy the giant Waves bundles only to find out they really only use 3-4 plug ins in the package that they could have bought for $25 a piece.  

 

 

Edited by Brian Walton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't you know, all the best things in life are free.

I don't actually use Cakewalk because it's free, I have other DAW's I have paid good money for. I use it because I like it the best. I could write the reasons but that would be too long a post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brian Walton said:

You are doing it wrong if Cakewalk + $500 doesn't get you everything you need to produce good music.

$500 is the tier these other "comperable" products are at that include real content.  All of this is better than what comes with any DAW under $300.  

  https://vis.versilstudios.com/vsco-community.html

http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/sound_samples

https://samplesfrommars.com/products/all-products-from-mars

https://stevenslatedrums.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011778653-SSD5-Free-Win-Installation

 

This was $40

https://samplesfrommars.com/products/all-products-from-mars

Cinematic Loops/OneHits/Etc that you get with Platinum.  Well if you don't produce EDM/Trance/Hip hop, not sure how much real value they have then.  When I went through the SPLT content, that is what I kept thinking this stuff is primarily usable for that type of music produciton.  You can get that kind of content for $5 by buying a Computer Music Magazine digitally and then downloading the content.  Do that with the right purchases and for about $30 you could have a collection of content that is far larger than what comes included.  LOTs of Free/Cheap loop/sample content out there.  that $5 purchase will also get you a bunch of Pro Quality Effects and Instruments.  

While there is a lot of Free Junk out there, plenty of stuff that is just as good as the paid products.  The AAS stuff I mentioned is top tier and was available for a period of time for literally $1.

 

If you get such a package with a DAW it will be tied to that DAW or it will require another authorization method.  

 

Lack of AAF support (or good support) is common with a number of DAWs, it isn't just a Cakewalk limitaiton.  I work with video a lot and frankly never need it for the work I do.  As for transfering projects to other DAWs, the pros I work with don't care about it and just want unprocessed tracks for mixing/mastering if I'm sending it out for that purpose.  

All depends on the content you are looking for.  If you are not willing to do any real research on the market, then yes, paying money for a package might be a good option (and Sonar was one of the BEST paid options for the content it came with).  Just like people buy the giant Waves bundles only to find out they really only use 3-4 plug ins in the package that they could have bought for $25 a piece.  

 

 

I can Competitive Upgrade to Digital Performer for $395.

Or Buy Samplitude Pro X4 for  $399.

For people doing loop-based music (not me), ACID Pro 8 is $149 and is perfectly usable for upstarts, and ships with all the needed Instruments and Synths, plus a ton of Loops; and they're pretty good quality (same as the ones used in other MAGIX DAWs).

VSCO isn't that great.  I've tried it (multiple times).  It's worse than the VITA instruments you get from MAGIX (which I have also used) with Music Maker.   Just loading MIDI files and playing them with each Piano, the difference is beyond noticeable (not to its benefit). I'd just get Garrison Personal Orchestra if I were to stick with Cakewalk by BandLab ($150).  With a DAW like Samplitude or  Digital Performer, I'd just use what they come with; which is perfectly serviceable.  Once you hear better instruments, it's hard to listen to that...

I also need AAF Support.  That's $200 for AATranslator - unless I switch my NLE to Premiere Pro CC (which has good OMF support), but that increases costs by $250+/year...  So AA Translator is the way to go, there.

A lot of the Cinematic Loops were useful outside of Trance, etc.  The loops for those genres, I'd just ignore , clearly.   In any case, they were value adds, which was my point.  For those who used them, it helped justify the price of the higher SONAR SKUs (SONAR and other DAWs).

I don't do much with drums.  I mainly need decent Orchestral instruments and good MIDI editing, so the Drums and Electronic Guitar stuff is of very little use to me.

But I will definitely say that my needs aren't "typical" for the user base this software has tended to keep; although I can also say bringing in users like me is a natural consequence of what they've done by opening up the product to everyone 😛 

Edited by SomeGuy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brian Walton said:

Lack of AAF support (or good support) is common with a number of DAWs, it isn't just a Cakewalk limitaiton. 

That's increasingly not true:

DAWs with AAF Support:

Pro Tools

Cubase

Nuendo

Samplitude 

Sequoia

Studio One

Digital Performer

Logic Pro X

etc.

…  I can list others, if needed.

OMF is a legacy interchange format, and AAF is meant to replace it.  So it isn't even really worth implementing OMF support in this day and age.  You just go straight to AAF, instead.  AAF is needed.  OMF support is often pretty bad, and most NLEs don't support it at all.

I don't need AAF for transferring from DAW to DAW.  I need AAF to transfer between NLE and DAW...  It's a major workflow enhancement.

Edited by SomeGuy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

So, I'm stuck at a weird situation where I like the interface and the way it's integrated/optimized well for my choice platform... but it might not be worth it in the grand scheme of things because other DAWs come with perfectly usable content out of the box, and it would be a one and done purchase for me at this point.  I'm not very interested in the EDM/Trance/Hip Hop type stuff that is popular, these days  🙂

Plus, having to manage all of those licenses (and probably multiple extra web accounts) vs. one DAW purchase.  Convenience is also a factor, at least for me.

The main problem with bundled content out of the box, is that it's usually tied to that DAW. That may be fine if you plan to use that DAW as your one and only, but otherwise ...

Edited by abacab

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

That's increasingly not true:

DAWs with AAF Support:

Pro Tools

Cubase

Nuendo

Samplitude 

Sequoia

Studio One

Digital Performer

Logic Pro X

etc.

…  I can list others, if needed.

OMF is a legacy interchange format, and AAF is meant to replace it.  So it isn't even really worth implementing OMF support in this day and age.  You just go straight to AAF, instead.  AAF is needed.  OMF support is often pretty bad, and most NLEs don't support it at all.

I don't need AAF for transferring from DAW to DAW.  I need AAF to transfer between NLE and DAW...  It's a major workflow enhancement.

I'm paid the make video productions and have never used it.  All audio is always handled in cakewalk and then put in various NLEs. (Premiere Pro, Vegas, Davinci Resolve, Camtasia).  But we all have different needs and workflows.  

Also AAF doesn't work "well" in all the DAWs listed, and was my point.  

 

As for the other post about VSTis. It is much about ones skill to manipulate audio.  I have GPO and find it adequate at best.   And in case you are unaware Sonar was packaged with some stuff from GPO within the Dimension pro program.

I don't think any DAW comes with market leading sampled instruments if that is what you need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ugh... 

2 hours ago, Brian Walton said:

And in case you are unaware Sonar was packaged with some stuff from GPO within the Dimension pro program.

That was kind of my point in regards to value proposition...

2 hours ago, Brian Walton said:

Also AAF doesn't work "well" in all the DAWs listed, and was my point.  

I've used the trials, multiple of them seemed to work well.  Additionally, some of them come from companies that also produce NLEs that natively round trip with them, and the integration works as expected.  DAWs like DP have amazing video engines and are designed specifically for the needs of film post production.  Like any consumer that values his money, I'd choose the one that works best for my needs, if I were to buy one of those... the same thing someone would have done with SONAR., when it was a paid product.

2 hours ago, Brian Walton said:

All audio is always handled in cakewalk and then put in various NLEs.

That works if you render audio and just drop it on Audio Tracks on the timeline.  I neve said that wouldn't work, but I like a more refined workflow.  I want to Sync Audio Timelines between the DAW and NLE.  AAF works well with most of those, cause I've tried it.  Hell, even VEGAS Pro handles AAF and can do decent Audio Post - even if you never edit video in it.  I think this omission has less to do with perceived inadequacies of AAF support, and more to do with Cakewalk ignoring that market.

2 hours ago, Brian Walton said:

I don't think any DAW comes with market leading sampled instruments if that is what you need.

Never insinuated that I wanted market-leading instruments, otherwise I wouldn't be looking at GPO.  I'm just looking for adequate in a nicely integrated package 😛 I have better things to do than trial out all the free stuff on the internet. Time passes a bit quicker for me, these days 😛

 

Edited by SomeGuy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Political/Economic discussion is over, and has been for a while...

So you clearly aren't referring to that, as it would make little sense at this point.

Edited by SomeGuy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...