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Jesse Screed

Is freewill a hoax?

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You didn't answer the question and instead posted something unrelated.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Maybe to a little snowflake....

 

There, THAT'S an insult.  Feel better now?

So, you don't choose to be an assho1e.

You just are one.  Got it.

Edited by RobertWS

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5 minutes ago, Tezza said:

Yes it is, if it's not, explain why.

Red herring. 

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5 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Every single one of Tezza's examples he cites as evidence of "no free will " has numerous counterexamples.  

First off, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

 

Children think that God is some kind of great meta-parent who doles out prizes to the good little boys and girls and spankings to the bad ones. 

Children think that freedom means being able to do anything they want,  any time they want, without repercussion. 

Free will does not mean that no one else has anything to say about it.  I may not be able to choose to be 6'9" tall, but I can choose to have a killer jump shot if that's what I want to spend my time on.  Playing in the NBA? Well, see, there's a whole lot of other people involved in that decision  (presumably exercising their free will) who might have other ideas. But I can play basketball.  Somewhere.  And I can choose how I think about it. 

So you are exercising "free will" in the context of the restraints around you, well it's not really free will then is it? What you are doing is exercising a decision based on available information and constraints. The term "free will" is not needed.

5 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Closer to Starise's examples,  I  knew several people in the Army who grew up in horrible circumstances,  who joined precisely to get out so they didn't get sucked into the same trap that landed everyone around them in poverty,  despair,  crime,  prison or a grave.  

What a great idea! Now those people can invade another country putting them in the grave or a prison or commit crimes against them and leave their bombed out country in poverty and despair.

5 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Even more telling examples come from Attachment Theory in psychology,  particularly in the area of intimate relationships.  "Did you know the last fight with your spouse began long before you met?" reads the blurb on the back of one book. 

The way we were conditioned growing up leads us to be attracted to certain types of people in certain very predictable  ways.  And leads us each to react in very predictable ways to the very predictable ways in which our partners trigger us. 

However,  we can react otherwise, contrary to that conditioning.  I know I have, and I bet you have too. In fact, given enough effort,  we can retrain our conditioned responses.

It can be done but most cannot and again, you have to be at a certain level to even consider this, let alone actually do it.

5 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

I would argue that the very fact that we are programmed since birth to have conditioned responses to certain stimuli is itself evidence of free will.  It means that we are a blank slate that can be programmed in the first place and that we could have been programmed differently

 

Additionally, free will does not mean that we have all choices open to us. The mere fact of having a mortal,  corporeal existence necessarily limits what is available. But, among what is available,  we may freely choose. 

I would say that limits go beyond what is "freely available" as well. Societal, religious, political programming. I am very often dismayed when talking to people to find all they are really doing in a lot of cases is regurgitating propaganda.

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8 minutes ago, Tezza said:

What a great idea! Now those people can invade another country putting them in the grave or a prison or commit crimes against them and leave their bombed out country in poverty and despair.

Really? REALLY? What the f**k is that? How does one even respond to such an asinine comment?

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3 minutes ago, Byron Dickens said:

Really? REALLY? What the f**k is that? How does one even respond to such an asinine comment?

It's simple, not everybody believes in invasion.

22 minutes ago, Byron Dickens said:

Red herring. 

I cannot really continue discussion with you, you won't answer a simple question. Wasting my time.

 

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Posted (edited)

Individuals do not invade countries.  You must be one of those peace and love people  who spits on returning soldiers. 

 

I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole chasing red herrings. We're  not discussing evolution. 

Edited by Byron Dickens
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tezza said:

Saying things like many wealthy people came from poor beginnings. You don't know this is true, you just hope it is. My view is that it is extremely rare. I've not said that people cannot, do not and will not act of their own volition. People can act of their own volition or at least what they think is their own volition but very often they are doing things for reasons that are hidden from their consciousness or they are simply reacting to outside stimuli or propaganda, societal or otherwise brainwashing. It depends on the level of insight people have, not all are the same.

All of this is subjective, drug addict might think that taking drugs enhances their well being and stop taking drugs causes suffering.

Animals are much more than instinct. They can have a complex social hierarchy, just like you. They can have their own languages, a mix of body language and vocalizations, just like you. They can feel emotions like love, hate, fear etc just like you. They also make decisions, just like you. They can work together for a pre-defined outcome, organize and plan, just like you. You are an animal, maybe more complex in your language and ability to physically create but an animal nevertheless. You evolved from an ape, you are a member of their species, the primates, you share about 99% of your DNA with chimpanzees.

Certain sectors of our society desperately want to separate us out from animals so we can treat them badly, eat them and use them for our own purposes without feeling guilt.

Choice does not distinguish us from animals, they have to make choices as well about all sorts of things. What you have quoted here can be correct under certain circumstances but the relationship between thoughts, emotions and behavior isn't just a one way train. A lot of what you are saying just sounds like some sort of biblical or pop psychological preaching to me. So that I don't waste any further time with this discussion, could you answer just one question for me?  Do you believe you evolved from apes? yes or no.

Yes, I definitely believe that I evolved from primates over the past million years or so.  I'm not sure about you though.  Denying the reality of your own volition sounds unevolved to my mind.    Sort of like a rebel without a cause...

Animals do not have art, science, philosophy or religion.  animals do not care for their grandchildren.  And by the way,   I don't eat them and I don't hunt them,  I am vegan.  Animals cannot know sin, or good and evil.  A hungry tiger in the jungle might eat you, but there's no moral or ethical component to the behavior because that's what animals are born to do.  But if a man follows you home one evening and stabs you to death for your wallet--that's why humans evolved laws because there's a moral sense in humans that animals either don't have, or have only to a very small degree, i.e. mammalian affection and love they can learn from humans who love them.

There's no real conflict between science and spiritual faith, at least for me there isn't.  Read a book by the biologist Stephen Jay Gould about the different domains that science and religion operate in.  And you've made another wrong assumption:  I do know people born in humble homes who became rich (and no, I won't give you their names or email addresses so you can hit them up for money).  So don't tell me I just "hope" it's true.  

I've answered your question. Now please, go debate someone else, I've said all I need to say...

Edited by jsg

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The stuff that I've seen goes WAAAAAY out there, but then ties so many things together that I must admit I give it merit.  Nope!  Not going to go into it, but evolution is only part of the answer.  There's also proof for genetic manipulation many thousands of years before our current civilization began.

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I can neither prove nor disprove it, but I have heard the Moon is made of cheese 😲

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3 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Individuals do not invade countries.  You must be one of those peace and love people  who spits on returning soldiers. 

 

I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole chasing red herrings. We're  not discussing evolution. 

Nope, I support the military, in defense, a necessary evil, they must be well resourced and respected but not worshiped and I don't support invasion of other countries. Here in Australia they are multipurpose now anyway.  Fighting bushfires, tsunami's, floods, cyclones and soon the Coronavirus. I think they do a great job. I am not really prepared to "discuss" evolution either because there is nothing to discuss. It is what it is, there is nothing to discuss. It's not open to "belief" anymore than whether the sun exists is open to "belief". When you study it as I have in Biology, the evidence is overwhelming. That's my view anyway, others are free to disagree but unfortunately, others have not been able to come up with anything that is even remotely credible as opposed to Evolution.

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32 minutes ago, Tezza said:

 I am not really prepared to "discuss" evolution either because there is nothing to discuss. It is what it is, there is nothing to discuss. It's not open to "belief" anymore than whether the sun exists is open to "belief...."

Well, why bring it up? It is irrelevant to the issue at hand and therefore a red herring. 

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2 hours ago, jsg said:

Yes, I definitely believe that I evolved from primates over the past million years or so.  I'm not sure about you though.  Denying the reality of your own volition sounds unevolved to my mind.    Sort of like a rebel without a cause...

Animals do not have art, science, philosophy or religion.  animals do not care for their grandchildren.  And by the way,   I don't eat them and I don't hunt them,  I am vegan.  Animals cannot know sin, or good and evil.  A hungry tiger in the jungle might eat you, but there's no moral or ethical component to the behavior because that's what animals are born to do.  But if a man follows you home one evening and stabs you to death for your wallet--that's why humans evolved laws because there's a moral sense in humans that animals either don't have, or have only to a very small degree, i.e. mammalian affection and love they can learn from humans who love them.

There's no real conflict between science and spiritual faith, at least for me there isn't.  Read a book by the biologist Stephen Jay Gould about the different domains that science and religion operate in.  And you've made another wrong assumption:  I do know people born in humble homes who became rich (and no, I won't give you their names or email addresses so you can hit them up for money).  So don't tell me I just "hope" it's true.  

I've answered your question. Now please, go debate someone else, I've said all I need to say...

I don't think it's possible for religion and science to coexist. That's a compromise that some religious people like to preach but in reality, it never works out. The two reasons why scientists like the one you mention try to get religion to sit alongside science is either they are religious converts themselves or they are trying to make their audience wider by not offending the religious. The latter in his case, although he compartmentalized them rather than bring them together. Scientologists have tried to attract crowds along that line, sorry, no.

Animals do not need to learn mammalian love  from humans, they have that capability for their own offspring. That is part of the mammal suite of behaviors. Some humans prefer the love of their pets to human love because it is uncomplicated and honest. "Sin" is not a word I use to describe human behavior. I don't really use "good" or "evil" either.

I would agree human behavior can be more complex than animal behavior and have many layers and perspectives attached to it so that it is not always clear what the underlying motives for the behavior was which is an argument in favor of the non-existence of free will.

No more from me, others can continue this discussion, I've seen no evidence here that humans have "free will". Can we make decisions within boundaries, some of which are under our control and some are not? yes. That's not free will.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, craigb said:

The stuff that I've seen goes WAAAAAY out there, but then ties so many things together that I must admit I give it merit.  Nope!  Not going to go into it, but evolution is only part of the answer.  There's also proof for genetic manipulation many thousands of years before our current civilization began.

My testimony about Jesus Christ is simple.  I met Him.  I know Him.  And it just so happens that His scriptures prove so much  by the fact that what is true science (vs. pseudo science, or science philosophy) was testified to 1000s of years before the modern science age caught up to what God told us already. 

The latter half of the above is not a religious statement.  It's all scientific, historical proof, if you take the time to investigate it.

One example:

Job 26:7  He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing. 

[Approximately 1000 B.C., or 3000 years ago.]

Before Einstein and later physicists began to understand the expanse of the stars in what they now call stretching the universe.

Edited by Toddskins
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Tezza said:

I don't think it's possible for religion and science to coexist. That's a compromise that some religious people like to preach but in reality, it never works out.

Pure bovine excrement.  There is nothing mutually exclusive about religion & science.  

 

But that's not just my opinion.  More than one scientist and more than one theologian say the same. 

Edited by Byron Dickens
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I had hoped it wouldn't go this way.

I attempted to rationalize some of what you said Tezza and it just doesn't compute in the real world. This isn't "us" against you. It's just that almost nothing you say makes any sense. I always find it amazing how someone who likely has far less life experience seems to know just about everything. Almost reminds me of the types of people who go off, adopt followers and start cults. It seems you are against pretty much all established norms and point to many of them as the reasons for our societal problems.  No human system is free of problems but they work good enough to have this thing we call a society.

I would love to see your alternative lifestyle that excludes anything that has maybe worked for the last several hundred years. 

I dunno, what does that look like? You could go to the jungle and live with your relatives. Make your own clothing etc.

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16 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

It's not quite that simple. 

Humans and apes evolved from the same animals, not one from another.

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Posted (edited)

And evolution is not a simple linear progression.  But it is still irrelevant to the discussion of free will. 

Edited by Byron Dickens
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To one of the replies up there... a big "NOPE!"

(And... it's not for me to enlighten any more methinks.  Go spend months and years diving down rabbit holes that are mostly being hidden on purpose.  Almost everything you learned is probably wrong - but, you know what?  I actually don't care because I've now gone beyond it and feel very comfortable with my reality.)

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