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David Sprouse

Production is NOT Composition!!

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Like a lot of definitions those definitions or interpretations thereof have changed over time, especially per genre, such as w/ dance and hip hop where guys are producing/composing beats and where those two terms are one and the same in the end. As a doom metal musician I actually consider those terms to be the same thing too. These days I think you'd have to say something more like "audio engineering is not composition" in order to get any clear separation. 

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The thing is.....I have heard some great composers who didn't have mixing/production chops. So no, production is not composition but in this day and age composers need either someone who can do it or they need to learn to do it. Makes all the difference online (where most music is heard nowadays).

Also, it is possible to change composition with production now.........they pretty much go hand in hand  IMHO.

Edited by Starise
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My product is compost. Is that close enough?

Edited by Wibbles
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20 minutes ago, Wibbles said:

My product is compost. Is that close enough?

For your sheepish compositions absolutely 😉😀 

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I have a background in film making and ran a production house for a while, also a short film group that also made some independent features. The discussion of "the Producer" was always being discussed. Basically, it worked like this, those films that had a Producer attached got finished, those that did not have a Producer attached struggled or failed. In film, the relationship between the Director and Producer is what drives everything. I would think of composition and production representing the Director and the Producer. The composer is the Director, assembling and creating everything and that's where it ends for most people doing music. They then struggle to finish and market their productions and in reality, it's too much work to do both jobs and most people just can't change hats like that.

They are different personalities. We came to the conclusion that unless there was both a Director and Producer attached to a film, no-one else was interested in participating, no crew, no actors etc.

These days, most DAW oriented musicians are trying to do both jobs and that will never work as well as having a dedicated Producer overseeing your work. If you are serious about your music, you need a dedicated Producer involved, someone who is not you.

The Producer's primary roles are to see that everything runs on time, on budget and that the work is finished, polished and marketed.

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To me, a composer is someone who writes musical phrases for one or more instruments and puts them together to form a piece of music. A producer is someone who takes a composed piece of music and targets it for the application: maybe suggest some additional percussion if it's for an action piece; maybe strip it back a little for something emotional; maybe add some special reverb in places for epicness.

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19 hours ago, Christian Jones said:

Like a lot of definitions those definitions or interpretations thereof have changed over time, especially per genre, such as w/ dance and hip hop where guys are producing/composing beats and where those two terms are one and the same in the end. As a doom metal musician I actually consider those terms to be the same thing too. These days I think you'd have to say something more like "audio engineering is not composition" in order to get any clear separation. 

I agree, it's all about words.

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19 hours ago, Christian Jones said:

What's the classic definition of production? 

I see your point here. The classic definition probably no longer applies. It's funny. Depending on what hat you wear you might see it differently. 

A couple of things come to mind. Just stuff that has accumulated in my grey matter over time from various experiences that probably form my opinion.

Here are just a few-

Someone on a  music writing site is looking for someone who can either take their music and make it sound better or "audio engineer" it. These people clearly don't even know what a DAW is. They just want someone to "do that stuff". Make them sound good. One person I worked with didn't really have any talent...sorry,. the truth hurts.

Someone who attended college and graduated with a degree in music theory and has dedicated themselves to write music to be published for orchestras. These dudes are up on music theory and they at least see themselves as professional score writers. Some of the stuff they write is admittedly "out there" to anyone who has been trained in the western music system. This is often because they are attempting to make some kind of statement. They often use free programs like Musescore and their material has that clunky midi feel to it when you hear it. These guys are an eccentric bunch. They don't know a DAW from their butt though.

Another person grew up on computers and took to software like babies to milk. They know every single thing you could imagine about some DAWs and a few things you can't imagine. Most of these types can't write any kind of music that stands out. 

Me? I do a little bit of a whole lot of nothing but it's all fun. I like to work through problems in software and come to solutions. I can often hear music in my head or construct music.....I'm not a computer expert, but I can usually make it do what I need it to do. I have a computer related day job. I am a musician using a computer to assist me in making music not a computer user trying to produce music using a computer. Make sense?.

So yeah, I admit I'm biased to some degree. I don't think someone with no musical talent is really capable of composing and I don't think many talented musicians can produce music. In between there somewhere are those who can effectively wear both hats to various degrees of success. Others who are talented musically in a technical way but can't make anything anyone wants to hear to save their life. It's easy to import a midi and work it into something for me but I don't do much of that because it isn't as fulfilling as making something from scratch. Often it isn't nearly as good as borrowing loops/midi. That's just a personal thing for me...I could give a few examples of music I did like that. You can wear both hats if you have the aptitude to do it. I think we have a lot of guys here who can.

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HI Craig!  What happened to Jaymes?  I imagine you're upset about Prince Harry and Meghan Markle.

Edited by David Sprouse

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Hi back at ya! 

Jaymes got old and can't take the buffoonery any more apparently.  He still contributes on the occasional song though (adding some great videos too).  Hopefully, he'll find being old gets boring and come back. 🙂

As for the hairy Prince and his misbehaving wife, my last name might be very English, but I'm 100% American, so I can only laugh at the situation (and feel sorry for Canada)! 😆

I bet you're glad the weathermen around here are both alarmists and alarmingly WRONG 90% of the time, ya?  Ten days ago the forecast was for about a foot of snow between Tuesday and Thursday, but all we got was about 1/32nd of an inch - LOL.  I'm still glad I chose to stock up on supplies and stay home all week.  Even in the best weather, the loons around here are horrible drivers!

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20 hours ago, Tezza said:

The Producer's primary roles are to see that everything runs on time, on budget and that the work is finished, polished and marketed.

Real world example: NagBap 2.0

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13 hours ago, David Sprouse said:

I agree, it's all about words.

True.

Producer, composer, musician, sheep rustler? It doesn't matter. All that matters is the end product.

giphy.gif

Edited by Wibbles
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5 hours ago, craigb said:

Hopefully, he'll find being old gets boring and come back

Lurking_cat.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

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5 hours ago, craigb said:

my last name might be very English

There you have it folks, after many years of speculation that craigb wasn't his real name, now we know........it's craigvE.

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1 hour ago, Wibbles said:

True.

Producer, composer, musician, sheep rustler? It doesn't matter. All that matters is the end product.

giphy.gif

Is it a product if there's no commerce?  See that's the deal...money....It'll never happen here though you can bank on that.  FAO

Edited by David Sprouse
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