JohnK

3 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Don't know how to add a Jump. 😀

 

Its a little finiky. The easiest way to explain it is,  move your points so you get a slight gradient, then right click on the line and select jump. You will end up with extra points, so delete the ones you do not need anymore. Jump is the more efficient way if you do not need a gradient between the two points. Which when panning hard left to hard right and vice versa, is the appropriate envelope.

Yep, that made the difference. So its the Jump envelope curve that does not work when rendering to MP3. That's why yours worked, and mine did not. 

I set it to linear and did the export it worked. I changed it back to jump, and it failed!

thats one of the reasons I posted the screen shot with the EVENT LIST which clearly shows the pan is before the note on. 

One thing I do notice in your image that you did differently, is that I used a Jump (also clearly visible in my above post) whereas you used a Line. I'll check if that makes a difference for me, but even if it does, it would still be a bug if the Jump does not work the same.

Actually, here is a MIDI file. Add the panning envelope (as I did above. not via MIDI controller) with each note alternating L-R-L-R. And render that out to MP3.

test_panenveloperendertomp3.mid

30 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Your upload plays as expected:   L   R   L

Mine plays as expected: C  R  L  R    120bpm and 360bpm

Fast.mp3 10.2 kB · 0 downloads             Slow.mp3 28.16 kB · 0 downloads

 

Yes, the last one I uploaded was the working one, that plays L-R-L. However, the original one plays L-L-L-R when it should be L-R-L-R

Also, as I said/showed in the screenshot of about the 3rd post above, the tempo does NOT appear to affect if it fails or not, it appears to be related to the duration & rate of the notes. So changing the tempo is NOT duplicating my issue. I played your MP3 files and yes, they do pan as you expect. Which further proves its not my players. The proof is in the generated MP3 file I attached to the about the third post above (not the working one that I posted last). And here it is again. It should be L-R-L-R but it is L-L-L-R 

I also did another test out of interest, where I converted my envelope to MIDI controller events, and that worked as expected. So it is specific to the envelope.

test_panenvelopefail.mp3

No. The MP3 as I linked above clearly starts on the left (ie its stereo), plays 3 notes on the left, and then switches hard right on the last note. It should switch between left and right on each note. I get the same if I play with either windows media player or VLC or MPV. So it does switch left & right at least once, just not after each note as it should. Additionally, the old generated MP3 of the original track plays left and right, which is how I noticed it when comparing; I was checking for general instrumentation and mix changes on an old SONAR project. Are you saying when YOU play the MP3's I attached above, that its alternating panning on each note? That would be the case if its the player was at fault and the rendered MP3 was correct.

Also, if you remember I said I tried it the first time and it worked, when using longer slower notes, that DID pan left and right as expected. Listen to the attached using a flute

testpanenvelope_working.mp3

If you say its the software I am  using to play the files, then the generated MP3 of yours, should not play correctly either. Please attach your test rendered.

Its definitely NOT my player(s), but a problem with rendering. The question is if its something specific to my set-up or a general failure.

OK, i think I have honed in on the issue, and can duplicate it (or make it work) using TTS1, and a single MIDI track playing 1 note 4 times.

1.  Start a new project
2. delete all default tracks
3. Add a TTS1 VSTi instance
4. Add a MIDI track and set it to use TTS1 Channel 1, and select Clav as the patch
5. Add 4 short notes in rapid succession (see screenshot below for details) using Piano Roll, all the same note
6. Create an Envelope for pan, as shown below using jumps.

When I press play, it sounds as expected in cakewalk; notes pan left and right and left again. However, when I export the audio, it does not switch left to right to left. I think it switches only once.test_panenvelope.mp3

The first time I did it with longer notes, it worked when rendered to MP3. So I tried my VSTi (BassMidiVsti) and that also worked however, when i shortened the notes and their duration (to more closely mimic the failing project), all of a sudden, it stopped working (i.e. missing pan on export to MP3 or Wave). I went back to TTS1 and it too failed to render the pan on short quick notes. So its not the VSTi.

I also tried reducing the tempo down from 120 to 60, thinking that would be the same as longer/slower notes (which did work on my first attempt), but it still failed.

Additionally on an unrelated angle, when I look at the events, it appears one node of my envelope is missing in the events?

13 hours ago, Nigel Mackay said:

That is the sort of settings I was referring to. What is rendered?

First to answer your question. I "think" its panned to one side. I'm not using headphones, and there's other stuff going on, so its hard to tell.

Thats a really broad open question. Which "settings" in particular are you interested in? The synth actually has a visible knob for pan, and I can also see (as well as hear) the pan being applied.

Its a 64b VSTi, BassMIDIVsti, which is a soundfont player.

The big buggy thing is, that it plays exactly as expected in Cakewalk (i.e. the pan is heard), but does not render the Pan automation. So why would they differ? I select everything before exporting.

hmmm.... that maybe thats the issue. Maybe by selecting what to render, the pan is not rendered... Its getting late here, so I will do some tests tomorrow. But feel free to ask more questions.

I have an old project where I have a snare on its own MIDI channel, which has a MIDI envelope on pan which basically mimics a left-right ping-pong delay. When I play the project in Cakewalk, it all sounds as expected. However, when I export it to MP3 or Wave, the panning is ignored. Below is a screen shot of the events and track, and then of the export options.

Have I done something wrong? As I said, it is an old project, and the last time exported it from Sonar, the panning is clearly in the MP3.

NB: In the above screenshot, its only the events up to bar 3:02:000 that matter

and the export options I use.

Its not about doing it, its about it being a bug. I already have explained above my workaround while describing and proving the bug. I am simply logging & reporting the bug, so that maybe the devs will fix it in the next release. The issue (i.e. bug) should be fixed in cakewalk.

To further that it is a bug, and it is not related to non-destructive-edits, I just found today, that sometimes, if it does not work the first time, simply trying again, often works  but not always. My above method in the OP has worked every time.

22 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Using only the high E string (to stay on channel 1) of the Ample guitar, I can make any instrument sound. As long as Input Echo is on.

But can you divert it to multiple other VSTi's in unison? i.e. multiple layered synths, all playing the Ample Guitar part.

Actually, the MIDI thru is working on the first VSTi I checked; FURY-800. However, its doing the same flakey thing, where if I set the receive of that MIDI out, to multiple other VSTi's MIDI in, only the track that has "focus" actually plays.

I managed to get a video, its a pity I didnt get sound. You hear each different instrument as it plays back.

What you do see is, as I click on a different track (ie it gets focus), that one receives MIDI (see VU Meter) and the others stop.

https://streamable.com/phklm2

I think we are now in BUG territory.

NB: Noticed I badly named track 5. It was actually TTS1 Ch2.

1 hour ago, Nigel Mackay said:

I have full version. You can switch on MIDI Guitar and set the channel for each string. Set all to 1. Now all strings work except high E, which was originally ch1.

Send MIDI to guitar on any other channel and all strings work. Except there is no note-off.

A guitar that can do MIDI channel per string is no help.

I do not have one non-Kontakt VST that works. Even though they say they have MIDI out.

I was not interested in Ample Guitar either, but it was the first one I found that appeared to do midi out. Weird that I am getting a midi off, with just a channel for each string.Also weird your high E now does not work; this tech is flakey.

I went through one-by-one to test ALL my 64b (and a few 32b) VSTi's. Ample Guitar was the only one that sent MIDI out; at least that I could get working. A few of them had a setting for "MIDI Thru", but turning that on did nada. It was a simple menu item being checked, and seemed to be a default interface that a few shared, but all ignored.

I am currently in correspondence with the dev of jBridge on another matter, and mentioned/asked about MIDI out, and he said jBridge did it, and he is actually using it himself. I'll see if I can get any more info on that.

I also found an ooooold thread about the 32b VST interface (DirectXer) which I used back in the day; but its only 32b. And all those users said SONAR didn't do stuff from VSTi's except by using DirectXer.

its a long read, and its mostly about other things. I remember at the time, I was shocked Cakewalk/TwelveTone/SONAR went with the other VST Adapter.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/DirectiXer-VST-Adapter-issues-m552719.aspx

42 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Experimented. Seems the Ample guitar decides to change MIDI channels below the top E string. Weird. Makes it unsuitable.

I only tested the  switch between the top and the second from the top string. I would assume, it goes for all the strings. i.e. each to their own MIDI channel. Which makes some sense, to enable the user to play a different sound for each string (as each string does sound different). To make it useful, I simply changed my MIDI in on the dest to OMNI, from Ample guitar, and all the MIDI channels are played by my dest.

But only if it has focus...

Simply dragging the end of a clip, makes the trimming work, for that clip. But from memory, the second clip also will not trim until it is also manually adjusted.

I don't see how. There are no MIDI events from bars 2 through to 30, so trimming the clip down to 1 bar IS non destructive MIDI Editing.

Also, how would my manual adjustment then make non destructive MIDI allow the trimming? To Cakewalk, its as if I simply  had chosen a different point to cut it at. It somehow appears to think that a user generated cut-point is a MIDI event, but a user dragged clip end is not. Its inconsistent, and therefore I still see it as a bug,

In regard to my post above, where I got it to kind-of work with Ample guitar. To remind people, it seemed to be dropping off notes based on a note cut-off point. I have determined what was going on there,

Ample Guitar, even though you set the MIDI out to channel 1, it actually sends the MIDI note data out to different MIDI channels, based on which string the note is played on. So on my destination track, I was listening specifically to the CH1 MIDI out of Ample guitar (the selected OUT channel), but it was really sending notes to Channel 1 AND Channel 2 depending on which string they were played on. As soon as I turned the MIDI in (on the destination track) to the OMNI of Ample guitar, all the notes played on the destination track.

However, I then tried adding another layer / synth, and the MIDI notes were ONLY sent to the destination track that had focus (i.e. selected / cursor / last mouse click). NOT to both! WT....

18 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

I am well aware of that. I am also well aware that the only VST that I could make work with MIDI out is Kontakt. Which means that you can't do what you want to do. So i offered an alternative, the alternative being to hide all the linked clips - out of sight, out of mind.

Sorry if I appear ungrateful, it wasn't my intent.

With my OCD, I still know they are there. Additionally, hidden tracks are still visible in the console view.

On 8/29/2020 at 4:08 PM, Nigel Mackay said:

To save frustration you could use linked clips, put all the "extra" tracks in a track folder and hide the folder.

But that explicitly goes against what I am asking in the OP. I already know it works with linked clips, but i prefer to use another option, and was checking if there was one. The MIDI Out looked like the solution, but its not working as expected.

40 minutes ago, Jim Fogle said:

I was having trouble understanding how the program was supposed to "know" what you wanted without you telling it.

Normally there is more than one way to perform a task.  Alternately could you have split each clip again adjacent to each note and then deleted the resultant two empty clips?

The program (i.e. cakewalk) should be using the very simple logic of "find the last midi event in the clip, then trim the clip to the end of this last MIDI event". By selecting the clip, I am telling it everything it needs to know to perform the task, as it has the MIDI events which has their times and lengths.

As for your suggestion, thanks, but the way I use to work-around the bug, already does what I need. It only becomes problematic if I accidentally manually clip (ie too eager at step 4) too far and cut off a MIDI note or event accidentally. NB: Your suggestion would have the same problem.

Sorry to repeat myself, but I have a work-around. The OP is highlighting a bug which forces me to use a work-around, when I should not.

1 hour ago, Kevin Perry said:

Try this (this setting affects split behaviour):

- Open Preferences
- Check the Advanced radio button
- Customization\Editing
- Untick "Non-Destructive MIDI Editing"

Repeat your test.

Otherwise, rather than Trim, do Bounce to Clip.

Again, there are ways (including the example I gave) to force it to work, but it should do it as is "written on the pack". As it does not, its a bug, and hence my post. As I stated, I already have a workaround.

As for Un-ticking "Non-Destructive MIDI Editing", I explicitly do not want this, so will not un-tick it. Do not forget, I already have a simple working method to force it to do what I want, but I should not  have to do this. i.e. I do not need to use bounce to clip.

I was not looking for a work-around (I have one). I am simply documenting a bug.

31 minutes ago, Jim Fogle said:

Normally there is more than one way to perform a task.  Alternately could you have split each clip again adjacent to each note and then deleted the resultant two empty clips?

There is a lot of things I could do as a workaround (the one example I gave of how I get it to work is clearly one). However,  there is NO reason Cakewalk should not do it already, and hence I see it as a bug.

I have been away from Cakewalk for a while, so this MIDI out is new to me, BUT I really see the opportunity for layering. I don't like having multiple linked clips. So I gave it a go.

My first attempts were with 32b VSTi's, that purported to support MIDI out. They were Hypersonic and SFZ. Neither of these worked. I also have since found that back in the days of 32b, SONAR had a reported bug that it didn't support MIDI out from VST synths, only DXI's.

Anyway, I looked for a 64b synth that did, and the first I came across was Ample Guitar MII Lite. So, I routed everything and it seemed to work only for 1 of the notes. After a bit of investigation, I realised it was ONLY mirroring the notes to MIDI out, that were above Eb5. So every note above Eb5 worked (including running the mouse over the piano roll, which is how I found it), but none below. I don't see how anything I did would be the cause, but obviously something isn't right.

Anyone got an idea what I am doing wrong?

In the big picture, I don't wish to use Ample Guitar as the source (its just the first 64b MIDI out VSTi I found); I asked the above to better understand the process to check what I am doing wrong, when I do find a better source.

My other questions are:

i) Is there another VSTi I could use? preferably lighter/"smaller" or less visually intrusive.

ii) This one is a little vague/crazy, but I have my reasons. Are there any simple SynthEdit based VSTi's that support a working MIDI Out?

iii) Has anyone managed to get MIDI out working from a 32b VSTi?

iv) and of course, what I am I doing wrong above, with Ample Guitar that it does not mirror below E5? (ie only above Eb5)

The following is a post where I first found out about MIDI Out and shows a picture of the setup

4 hours ago, Jim Fogle said:

I'm not understanding.  At step # 3, "I try to trim the first clip, but it does not change." and then at step # 4, "I manually trim the end of the clip a little."  If you manually trimmed at step 4 what kind of trim did you attempt at step 3?  Will you clarify step 3 please @JohnK?

I am not 100% sure the exact part I haven't been clear about, so please forgive me if I repeat anything you already understand. I am also repeating the steps for my own benefit. and also as another test confirming it.

So, at step 2, I have split the clip into two parts around 15 bars each. The first clip (I should of named them...) has a single note in it at 1:01:000 followed by 15 bars of nothing. I wish to trim the nothing off from the clip, so it is cut down to only the length of the single note. So at Step# 3 I right click on the clip and select "Apply Trimming" from the pop-up menu, but it does nothing, it fails. Step three should of cut it down to only the length of the note. So the "type of trim" at step #3 is from the pop up menu, after right clicking on the clip. I just realised, the image is probably all you needed...

At step 4, I manually trim the end of the clip a little (its just what gets the apply trimming menu item to work), and then re-do the pop-up menu based apply trimming. THIS time it works and the clip is down to the length of the note. If I was to manually try and trim the clip all the way down, I would run the risk of either cutting off an unseen note/event, or trim the clip shorter than the length of the note.

Actually, more out of interest and learning, is there another type of "Apply Trimming" I don't know about?