Terry Kelley

You could also try:

1. Open the file.

2. Look at the events and note the number of channels

3. Create that many midi tracks.

4.  Go to Edit/Select/By Filter

5. Set the Channel to 1 (or the lowest) and hit Ok. This will highlight only those events on Channel one

6. Copy those with either Edit/Copy or CTRL-C.

7. Paste to the new Channel 1 track

8. Repeat for each channel.

Side note. I do see that Cal file but I don't have any Midi 0 files, only 1 and WRK files from the 1900's.

To MSMcLeod:

When running these interfaces without a common clock the setting of the Mixing Latency Buffer Size affects the sync of the two interfaces doesn't it ...

If I set it short it will start to cutout/jump or if too long sync starts to drift. There is a sweet spot but it's a guess.

10 minutes ago, John Vere said:

The test was a total failure. I could select both interfaces in preferences under WASAPI exclusive. I could also select either interface in the 2 tracks I set up but when you hit record it tells you the old pop up that the device in use does not support the currant driver mode. So testing individually it turns out the Motu does not support WASAPI exclusive. The Focusrite works fine under WASAPI exclusive. So once again every manufacture has a little bit different coding in its driver. 

 

 

When I select WASAPI Exclusive with my iTwo and UCA--222, Cakewalk complains that my format (44.1k/16b) isn't compatible with one interface (the UCA-222) and switches to 48k/16b. I can then assign four tracks to each of the four inputs and they do record.

Ok, so in Cakewalk/Preferences/Audio/Drivers you can select the Playback or Record Timing Master. Cakewalk is listening to the interfaces clock? I always thought Cakewalk specified and generated the clocks for the interface and these settings determined where the clock was going and coming from. I also didn't consider that the time bases probably aren't high enough that dividing it down would effective divide cut the error.

Very interesting insight. Thanks for taking the time to go over this.

Terry

Check your PMs. I sent you a test file. You can Open in Cakewalk, Import or Open With Cakewalk and it should give you multiple tracks.

I can't get it to not open as multiple tracks. If you don't mind, PM me your file and I will try it on my side.

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

Actually it matters more for playback than recording.

Recording isn't an issue, as you can adjust the recording by nudging the waveform to align it.

Playback is more of an issue.  If the wordclocks aren't in sync, the devices won't be playing at exactly the same time for the same sample time.  This can cause phase issues or a chorus/flange effect if the wordclocks drift significantly.   More subtle wordclock drifting will mess with your stereo imaging, making your mix seem "wider" in places or even lop sided. 

You might get away with it if you carefully choose which instruments go to which output - i.e. make sure stereo pairs, or doubled parts always go to the same device.   But you can't rely on it.

To avoid any of these issues, I'd seriously recommend getting a multiple out audio interface.  You can get them pretty cheap nowadays off eBay, or even refurbished from the manufacturer (Focusrite quite often sells refurbished or older generation interfaces off cheap).  
 

I can see where this could effect the image of anything not exclusively in the front or rear pair. Where is the clock generated? I missed that.

It does for me. Are these Cakewalk midi files (WRK)?

Try the attached. I can create a single midi track, highlight it and then import this file getting many tracks.

I'm trying to think if there is a setting that controls this. Are you sure they aren't truly single tracks with everything piled into it? You can do that even if that confuses everybody.

So for playback-only to multiple interfaces, do the word clocks matter? All of this is about playback mixdown to quad or 5.1. While it might be nice to record from both interfaces at the same time, I doubt I would. I just want multiple outputs.

6 minutes ago, John Vere said:

I'm glad you brought this topic up because I had never done this and tried WASAPI Exclusive. I always use ASIO and just turn off the interface I'm not using. I have to keep my Scarlett alive as it has SPDIF and the Motu doesn't. Funny how WASAPI mode is calling the digital ins and outs analogue. But this gives me 8 analogue inputs if I need them without dusting off the Tascam. 

There are lots of small mixer around I used to have a little Yamaha too. I have the Mix 8 for the studio and then a Mackie Pro effects 4 that I used for my solo gigs. 

For it's size the Mix 8 does a lot. Especially useful is the Tape input which you can send to your headphones or to the Main outputs or both. 

If I want to do a loopback test all I need to do is push the Mains button if I have the mixer running back to inputs 3/4. 

I have used it in many configurations. I have a Lexicon MX 200 hooked up and when I was tracking clients I would use it to give them a different cue mix than I was hearing. As I said my Scarlett could do all that but was always confusing because of software. 

I have a bunch of mixers going as far back as Tascam 2A's but don't want to get one out and use up the space. This isn't the 1900's man!

I sent a PM on the Mackie Mix 8.

2 minutes ago, scook said:

If not explicitly mentioned in the documentation, it is extremely unlikely the driver supports it.

If not documented, contact Presonus support for confirmation.

 

I did and initially got a pondering "it should" but they passed me off to an "expert" who will call me back.

I was thinking about the master clock for each. Without having any knowledge about how they work, I assume the interface sends a clock to Cakewalk and Cakewalk follows that.  With a second interface, would it be sync'd via some signal over USB or could it free run if the clock speed was high enough (and drift would be minimal)?

Someone has to lead but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't be told to follow.

10 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Out of curiosity I hooked up my Scarlett. You can see by the screen shots that in ASIO mode it took over from my Motu which I believe is Cakewalk's system of using Alphabetical order for in/out defaults.  Example " digital SPDIF" often takes over as the master bus output. 

But as you see in both ASIO and WASAPI Shared I can only use one or the other interface. 

But in WASAPI Exclusive I can easily use both.

Yeah, this is what I see too. So the question is if ASIO will enable two of the same brand/model interfaces. Right now with ASIO, all of my software will work at the same time as long as they are all set to the same sample rate and bit depth. WASAPI Exclusive locks everything else out but it's a minor inconvenience flipping things around as needed.

On a side note, I really appreciate your suggestion of the Mackie Mix 8. That little thing has potential. I'm reading the manual now. 

4 hours ago, John Vere said:

I actually agree with what @bdickens   is advising. For the price of another "wrong" interface you could purchase a 4x4 interface like the Scarlett 4i4 or the Motu M4. Those are both solid reliable interfaces that have 4 outputs and not expensive.

I see another Presonus iTwo would be $230 ( can)  and the Motu and Scarlett are only about $75 more. 

If you need 4 outputs you should purchase the proper device. Simple logic and good advice. 

ASIO4all is bad advice. It is not ASIO, it is WDM mode in a wrapper. So your actually worse off than WASAPI which has much better performance. 

Hi John,

Well, I can get used iTwo's in the $100 range. I have one now. Another $100 is cheap. The 1810C or 44VSL and various other 4 channel+ interfaces are in the $400+ range.

Next, few if any interfaces have separate physical volume controls for the line out without going to a true console style mixer. I will not have an audio chain without a volume control available. If Cakewalk/plugin and the interface(s) decide to go stupid I will have zero control over the volume.  That's never a good idea.

Next, I am running a Presonus iTwo and Behringer UCA-222 together now and they stay in sync but I have to run in WASAPI Exclusive mode. You lose the ability for other apps to share the interface (in the rare situation where I want to mix surround sound while watching a Youtube History of the Celts program. I have a USB 8 channel interface intended for movies and gaming and I get 8 separate channels but again with no volume control. It otherwise works great but it's 1/8" jacks and not balanced out. It's what got me thinking of multiple interfaces. Since I only need to run multiple outs during mix-down, ASIO4ALL might be a good solution. Latency won't really matter if I am not recording or live monitoring.

Finally, I am experimenting so while there are certainly other and probably more practical solutions, I want to try something. I know the first reaction is to try and drive someone towards some alternate solution but you have to consider if maybe the person is interested in the learning and experimentation. The question is the same. Will it work and has anyone done it. It sounds like it will with the right interfaces. I am waiting for Presonus to call me back. There are examples (as Noel noted) of people running at least two identical interfaces at one time (but no examples of more than two.) I'm not throwing money around but learning. And I might just have to buy a 4x4 interface and wire up a quick 4 channel balanced in/out volume control and be done with it.

50 minutes ago, pcooke9 said:

If I understand what you're saying, the most important thing for you is to have PHYSICAL volume knobs to adjust stereo pairs individually, right? If that's the case, I use CbB with a Tascam US-16x08's eight outputs going into an old JamHub. Maybe it could work for what you want to do? I'm not using it for a quad/surround config, but rather to jam with each person having their own separate headphone mixes. It's really nice to be able to turn yourself up without affecting everyone else's mix.

Jamhub is discontinued, but the Roland HS-5 and the TC Helicon Blender are similar. The Blender is awesome. It has bluetooth mix control via phone apps. I ordered one recently because my JamHub's finally giving out, but it's been backordered for almost a month now. It's only $129 though, so I can wait.

http://www.jamhub.com/

https://www.roland.com/us/products/hs-5/

https://www.tc-helicon.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CPR

Hi Pcook9,

Separate volumes are one reason yes. There are a couple of interfaces that do have two headphone out jacks with volumes that I could use but I would prefer a more straight forward solution. Few if any have separate volumes for the line outputs unless I go to mixing consoles like the Behringer X32 et al. I'm also curious if this will actually work. 

I will check out the Tascam and JamHub combo and appreciate the input.

Hi pwalpwal, I had considered ASIO4ALL and might resort to it if necessary (and if it would work.) I could still switch to ASIO for recording on one interface.

Azslow3 - I think those are the key points. As Noel mentioned, some drivers might do it. I'll see what Presonus says.

Again, I was curious is anyone had done it and so far the short answer is no. Dang you Steinberg!

It's not headaches. I'm doing something specific. It's ok. Don't worry about it.

1 hour ago, bdickens said:

You beat me to it. I got to thinking and realized well yeah some manufacturers have drivers that let you use identical interfaces together and the driver makes the computer see it all as one interface. So, as far as the computer knows it's only one interface.

Trying to kludge Rube Goldberg workarounds together is just going to cause headaches. Why not just make it easy on yourself and get an interface that has enough speaker outputs to do what you want?

I don't see where kludge and Rube Goldberg plays into this. I'm trying to do something and asking for input. This isn't a survey or test.

1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

It depends on the manufacturer. Some allow running two  interfaces of the same kind and aggregate the I/Os via the ASIO driver. Presonus allows it with some of their devices. MOTU, RME, LYNX all do.

 

Thanks Noel,

I'll contact Presonus directly and see if someone can clarify which ones. I know I could just try it but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily.

The validity of quad is irrelevant to what I am doing or my question.

So no means - you haven't done it or no, you tried and it didn't work or no, you heard it won't work?

7 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

No that looks like a bug in the program you are working with not properly understanding the Wavformat extensible format. I don't think this has anything to do with our export. Choosing Wav(microsoft) is simply choosing the libsndfile wave file writer rather than Cakewalk's built in one. There is probably some difference in the format that is confusing your encoder. I would log an issue with their support to find out why it fails.

Hi Noel,

I absolutely agree and didn't mean to imply it was Cakewalk's issue. The challenge was just figuring out what I really needed to do/use. In troubleshooting I kept simplifying and simplifying to see where things worked and then fell apart. Somewhere I switched to Microsoft Wav without noting it and went down a rabbit hole. Yeah, I might let them know what I am seeing but for now, it all works consistently when I am consistent. 

I certainly learned a lot about quad through 8.1 SS and how it works in Cakewalk.

I have done many searches on this and the answers vary from no to maybe, to you might, but no one has said they've actually done it. I can certainly get an interface with several outputs but none (so far) have physical volume controls for all outputs, only the main stereo outs.

Has anyone actually run two identical interfaces using ASIO and had both usable at the same time so you could select all four outputs? I want to run two Presonus iTwo interfaces at same time for quadraphonic. I want to run two separate interfaces so I have a physical volume controls for front and rear. I might even consider going to three interfaces for 5.1 or using all four to six inputs.

Right now I can run two different interfaces but I have to run WASAPI Exclusive which I don't like doing and having to flip back and forth for recording or playback.

Has anyone actually done it? Maybe with some other brand? Focusrite? M-Audio, etc?

For me, the issue is that you are given many options but no real explanation on which one to choose and when. I had to stumble through each one and there are a lot of them. I still think something is amiss but as long as I follow the above recipe, it works. However, adding and deleting tracks would switch it from working to not working depending on various choices.  Cakewalk itself would usually do what you asked for but the authoring software didn't like certain things. And if you are remixing a stereo project, don't leave the original main/master buss on there ...

So it works now but why the weirdness, is unknown. I can export stereo in the WAVE format and be fine but need to use WAV (Microsoft) for surround. Why? Trying to find some detailed info on surround mixing and format was also challenging. This isn't Cakewalk's fault. It's just not common information. Angle, focus, etc. and how they interact. And as you listen, it's not always what you expect or really what the definitions say.

I will say that Cakewalk tools are all pretty easy to work with for surround especially using stereo plugins on the various stereo pairs. Then you quickly learn to not overdo anything.

Any chance you are running a low block size? I was playing some projects and noticed the audio is out of sync if the block size is smaller than 256. Before I could go as low as 32 (needed when recording.)

Curious if you are seeing the same thing.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SELECT WAV (MICROSOFT), NOT WAVE FOR THE FILE FORMAT!

Somebody get a board and beat me with it!

Maybe someone can try this for me:

1. Take a large multi-track project (20 or more tracks if you have one. The more complicated the better.)

2. In Preferences/Project/Surround, select 5.1 Music/Alternative for the Surround Format and point the 6 outputs to your stereo hardware output. On mine I set

- Left to ASIO 1

- Right to ASIO 2

- Left Surround to ASIO 1

- Right Surround to ASIO 2

- Center to ASIO 1

- LFE to ASIO 2

- Apply and close Preferences

3. Insert a Surround Buss and point any audio or simple instrument track to the Surround Buss (on mine I get Surround D, E, or G depending on how many busses you already have.)

4, Go to File, Export, Audio and set:

Source Category -> Hardware output ( I have tried Entire Mix too but it selects both my Surround Main and ASIO Output and you can't deselect either but this doesn't change the outcome.)

Select Surround Main buss in Source Hardware

Select Multi-channel in Channel Format

Set the Sample Rate to 48000

Set the Bit Depth to 24

Enter a file name (Test SS, or something) and click Export.

Do you get the Extra Encoding Option Dialog? I don't.

But if I start with a simple project with one or two tracks, the dialog appears.

I'll send anyone a $1M that tries this. Once I get an extra million.

Even when the dialog doesn't show up, Cakewalk still creates the mulit-track file (I've confirmed it by loading them back into Cakewalk) but some data is missing or the format is wrong.

Terry

Does anyone know what makes the Extra Encoding Option dialog box show up? I have a single track file I'm working with and it shows up when I click on Export. With the same settings and export options, it won't show up on a multi-track file. This appears to be related to the issue of invalid export files. No dialog, no work.