mdiemer

I'm now wondering whether I accidentally nudged the input dial on my audio interface. It's close to the headphone jack, and it's possible I moved it up while connecting or disconnecting that line out. This would explain it. I have been over and over my setup, and nothing is different. I can't be sure however, as I don't remember exactly where I had set the input volume (note to self: make a note of all settings on audio interface). But I'm going to assume that's the explanation as nothing else really makes sense.

Assuming you're on Windows 10, can you do a system restore? that's what I do in Win. 7 in this situation. But not being familiar with Win. 10 I don't know if this is an option. but that's what I would do, if I could. I would not be surprised if M$ took this feature away in Win. 10. After all, it was a great feature. and they have a history of killing great features. Anything to remove control from the user is a win,  in their thinking.

On 11/8/2020 at 11:58 AM, bitflipper said:

Yes, that's what I meant - that CC7 and/or CC11 messages are included in the data stream. Those are normally the only way volume information is conveyed. There is, I believe, a SysEx command for setting the master volume (similar to the master tuning SysEx command), but that's rarely used and certainly wouldn't be applied by default. 

Of course, individual instruments can choose how they respond to any CC, such as some orchestral libraries that tie CC1 to volume to make it easier to automate swells.

Given that the files do contain volume information and it hasn't been modified, and those are just numbers that presumably Cakewalk doesn't alter, then we have to conclude that it's down to the way the VIs are responding - either in Cakewalk or in Reaper. There could have been some CC scaling going on in Reaper, making the instruments quieter and now they're just back where they should have been all along. 

Yeah, it's kind of mysterious. I'll probably never know exactly what happened here. I won't be importing again from Reaper. I won't go back to Reaper unless I can use it on Linux. While that's possible now, it's really not if you need Windows VSTs.

On 11/8/2020 at 12:40 AM, LarsF said:

I did a walk through how Cakewalk works in the regard when midi CC#7(volume) is sent.

Unless you touch a midi track faderin Cakewalk, no CC7 is sent. In Reaper when I ran v3/v4 you could activate that fader is midi - and it is sent every time as you start transport, all 16 channels sent even an initial value as transport is started every time. I had some issues with this how it worked.

But if you happend to touch it, it stays there in Cakewalk and the synth is playing back on that volume, which could be very different next time you load the project. So something to watch out for.

 

My link explain Cakewalk a bit, but also that modifier on midi track are after plugin bay for midi - so a midi monitor could not see what is actually sent as modified.

For newcomers I link to some decent plugins for monitor, TrackDiag and PortDiag anyway, very useful. PortDiag do realtime through monitoring and playing, TrackDiag what clips on track sends.

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/

Very interesting, thanks for all that good info Lars. It will take me awhile to digest it, however!

5 hours ago, John Vere said:

This why I'm warning against "Importing" It is well known that if you import a midi file to an existing project a lot of data is not going to be there. The project will dictate a lot of parameters, example the projects tempo.  

Take a downloaded midi file, open a blank project and import the file. It will have nothing, no tempo no synth etc. it brain dead. It will have Velocity, I just did this and checked. But there are no patch numbers etc. 

Now if you take that same file and "open" it  Cakewalk will create a new project and all the original data should be 100% intact. If you have nothing checked under Preferences/Midi/ Devices/ output then Cakewalk will insert the TTS-1 and all the tracks will play correctly if the file was a GM file. 

So the standard practice is to SAVE AS  a MID. file in the original DAW and OPEN that file in Cakewalk to preserve important data. 

I would think you would need all the midi tracks on different channels before you save it otherwise they might get jumbled. 

I think I have done it other way in the past. and you're right, the result is better. Unfortunately I'm not always consistent in how I do things, and I don't do a midi transfer that often. On this occasion, although all the notes were there, as well as all CC events and velocities, it didn't have any tempos. I had to go back to the original project in Reaper and copy them down, then put them in CbB. As this is a large-scale, 16 minute piece, with lots of tempo changes, well it took me a while. Next time I'll be sure to do it the right way.

6 hours ago, bitflipper said:

There are two possible explanations (assuming we can ignore the VIs): changes to volume (including expression and aftertouch) or velocity data.

I don't have a great deal of experience importing MIDI, but my recollection is that velocities are not altered on import. I can't imagine why they would be. You'd have to examine the original data in another application or (even better) open it in a hex editor to make sure you know what some of the velocities actually are. If somehow there is no velocity data in the MIDI file (if that's even possible), then Cakewalk would set everything to the default value of 64. Of course, if that was happening it would be obvious because every note would have the same velocity. From your description, it sounds as though the music sounds correct but is just too loud. That would seem to eliminate velocities as the problem.

So I'm guessing volume or expression CCs would be a more likely candidate. By default, Cakewalk does not send any MIDI volume commands to soft synths unless they are already embedded in the MIDI data. If the value over the volume slider says "(101)" that means "not sending anything". You should be able to look at the event list to see if there are any CC7 or CC11 events in there. If there is, then I'd expect Cakewalk to simply process them without modification, in which it comes down to how each synth interprets volume and expression, as there is no standardization here. 

 

The imported midi does have all the volume events (CC 7 & 11), and also the velocities are correct. Not sure what you mean by "embedded in the midi data." Do you mean embedded in CC events, or that the midi data itself contains volume information?

5 hours ago, Kurre said:

Maybe it's as easy as difference in default midi volume.

If Cakewalk has defaults for MIDI Volume = 101 and Reaper has defaults for MIDI Volume = 64 there's an audible difference.

That's what I've been wondering also. Different DAWS do have different ways of doing things when it comes to the nuts and bolts. For example, Reaper and Cakewalk treat time differently. They both have Event Lists, where you can see the time of every event.  But they use different formulas. Cakewalk uses "1:02:000" for example, while Reaper displays the same time in a different format (can't recall just how as I haven't used it in awhile). 

But it puzzles me that a midi import would sound different, as I set everything up like I always do. Midi is just information, not sound, so I don't get how this happening. Once the midi is in Cakewalk, and I have set things up as usual, it should behave accordingly.

12 hours ago, John Vere said:

You should never IMPORT midi Always OPEN the midi file and the previous settings will be maintained. You just have to replace the TTS-1 with what ever synth you want to use. Import is meant to be used for clips not whole songs. 

 I have successfully imported large orchestral projects many times. This appears to be due to some kind of difference between Reaper and Cakewalk. So, if I import from Reaper (as opposed to importing an old Cakewalk midi file), maybe that difference is causing a problem.

24 minutes ago, William W. Saunders, Jr. said:

What synth/soft synth is your MIDI feeding to make the sound that is too loud?

I'm using Garritan Personal Orchestra, EWSO Gold, Vienna SP 1 Synchron Edition, Cinematic Strings,  Appasionata Strings, and some solo instruments. Here too I have set everything to my usual defaults, then adjusting on the fly.

41 minutes ago, Max Arwood said:

Did you bring down the audio? or the Midi volume or velocity.  Defaults for MIDI are Volume = 101,  Vel+=0.

 

 

 

 

There is no audio per se, it's all midi. I am doing the same thing I always do with volume and velocity, adjusting everything as I go.

I'm remixing a piece I did in Reaper. I have imported the midi (midi only - no audio) from Reaper into CbB. It is much louder than the default volume I start my pieces with, even after adjusting everything the same as my other projects in CbB. I have to bring the overall mix level down to -7 or so or it's way too loud. This has me puzzled. It's only midi, so there should not be a difference. I'm using the same compressor I always use, Sonitus Neve. that always brings my orchestral mixes into balance. But not in this case. I can't figure out where these extra decibels are coming from. What in blazes is going on?

18 hours ago, abacab said:

It's normally sold as a part of the discounted AIR collection, but I've not often seen it for under $99 standalone.

I would only recommend buying Structure as a player for the included instrument library, not as a sampler to import your own samples.

The 1st reason for that opinion is that  it needs a  known bug fix for entering new text labels. Several others, including me, have noticed the UI will not take text entry any more . Maybe that's just a Windows 10 thing, and you might get lucky with Win 7. The only reason I still keep it around is for the sample collection, which isn't bad!

The 2nd reason is that is hasn't been updated since October 2015. No longer under current development, as far as I know. Probably too out of date for Win 10 use, other than as a player.

But for $20 this makes for a decent ROMpler! 😁

Thanks for that. This ticks my memory: Anderton awhile-back posted an article about how to import un-encrypted files into a sampler, like the sfozando player. It was complicated, but doable, although I have yet to try it. I may give it a shot at some point. I would then be able to "mine" NI Bandstand for any of its sounds I might want to use.

1 hour ago, abacab said:

@mdiemer

AIR Structure 2 sampler just went on sale for $19.99.

https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/1-Instruments/5-Sampler/1551-Structure-2

Very, very tempting. It says it can play un-encrypted NI files. The samples in NI Bandstand are in fact un-encrypted, so I may be able to actually use them again. not to mention the huge library they provide. 

The problem is, my birthday is coming up, and if I keep giving myself presents, I may not get any from my wife. Decision's decisions.

13 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

It's actually the best I've tried for that use. Even as downloaded, the included effects can take you to a well-mixed, well-mastered track. Add some freeware plug-ins and it gets even better. I think it's the perfect companion for Ableton Live!, which I find really lame for audio editing and so-so as far as the mixing console. For EDM performance and composition, Live! is awesome at what it does.

No program does the work for you; learning how to mix and master well take years of learning and experience. It's like Photoshop or GIMP or Paint.NET, yes, you can get professional results with them, but you also have to start with good raw material and then learn how to use the tools they have.

I use only Cakewalk plug-ins for my mixing and mastering. Of course, as a Sonar owner I have access to some very good ones that are not in the current Cakewalk DAW. I use the LP64EQ, Tube Leveler, Sonitus Compressor, and for final touch, the Vintage Channel. I find the "Gentle MS Mastering" preset gives my classical-oriented music just the right sheen.  Cakewalk still has the Sonitus suite I believe, and maybe the Tube Leveler, but the LP64 and VC you would probably need to find something else. But the freebies threads on this forum have a ton of great stuff. Just ask and the various ascended masters in this place will be glad to direct you to some good options. You will have the TTS-1, which gives you a general midi set. (Hopefully it works for you; for some mysterious reason it won't for me).

I posted this by mistake in the Free FX forum, meant it for here:

Don't know if folks know about this place, but they have a really nice free clarinet:    https://www.fananteampro.com/clarinetica

There are some other freebies there too, including some unusual ethnic instruments/synths. some of the stuff costs 20 or 30 dollars, but most is free. Great support, too. I messed up the registration, and they responded to my emails within 5 or 10 minutes.

Did somebody mention Free Beer?

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

Oh, Fanan, yes, I love their stuff. Ethnic clarinets with trance gates? Scandi-vegas slot machine UI's?

Some companies produce things that the world needs, some companies produce things the world did not know it needed, and I think Fanan does a wonderful job of the latter.

But I think I posted in the wrong place. I meant the Free Instruments thread. 

Don't know if folks know about this place, but they have a really nice free clarinet:     https://www.fananteampro.com/clarinetica

There are some other freebies there too, including some unusual ethnic instruments/synths. some of the stuff costs 20 or 30 dollars, but most is free. Great support, too. I messed up the registration, and they responded to my emails within 5 or 10 minutes.

2 hours ago, abacab said:

Just in case you were wondering, there's a few clarinets and bass clarinets in the 'Pop Brass and Woods' category in the AIR Structure 2 sampler (included in the AIR Instrument Expansion).

And in the 'World' category, accordions and more (never know when you might need a vuvuzela, a didjeridu, or a jaw harp:

 

 

 

 

Thanks, something to consider. I've been needing a decent soprano sax for awhile. 

More feedback on the Fanan site: The Clarinet is definitely free. It's on a par with Garritan clarinets.

The Brass inst. is also free, but rather disappointed me. The Accordion, which costs 20.00, is decent, but might take some tweaking to get it to sound the way I want.  Their synths allow a good deal of tweaking, fortunately.

I was doing some searching for a good free clarinet vst, and I came across this place:   https://www.fananteampro.com

The clarinet is very good. and they also have "Folkordion." It looks like it has a Bandoneon (it would probably be the Argentina mode). It costs 20.00, but that 20.00 also gets you access to several more instruments. The clarinet is free, but you need to register it after 30 days, which I believe then costs 20.00. but again, you get several instruments. most seem to be synth-like, but not all. they also have a Royal Pack, which costs 30.00. The clarinet (Clarinetica) and the Folkordion are just 20.00. I'm still not clear on whether the clarinet is free, but I'm going to pay the 20 bucks and get the folkordion as well.  Also their brass vst, which has trumpet, trombone, french horn and baritone sax. All for just 20.00. If the quality of the other inst's. is as good as the clarinet, this is a steal.

Amazing what's out there.

Of course. Cakewalk does everything you need to do in a DAW. It's also one of the oldest, thus has had a lot of time to be perfected. and the developers are not under market pressure. They're free to continue perfecting it without worrying about the bottom line. And Cakewalk users are among the most knowledgeable people on the planet when it comes to using music creation software. 

The learning curve is more difficult with Reaper. It's not as intuitive or user-friendly. I always felt like it was fighting me every step of the way.

To me, Cakewalk is a no-brainer.  It does everything. It's elegant. and it's free. In my opinion, a newcomer to the world of DAWS would be crazy not to try it first.

You know, after further review, I think the Tango Accordion in Xpand sounds better than Accordion 2 in Dim Pro. It sounds more like a real Bandoneon. It just has more of that nasal, tangy, sort of sinister sound you think of when you think of Tango music. the more I hear it the more I like it!

You know, it's weird, after I purchased it (Xpand), and was figuring out how to download, install, etc., I saw that I had previously created an account, and, lo and behold, I had an Xpand serial number already there, waiting for me. How long it had been there I don't know. But at some point, I was at least in the process of acquiring it. and the price? Around 3.00. So, I must have got it when they were practically giving it away, as you stated. and then, I don't know, I guess I just forgot about it. Maybe that was the last time Windows crashed and I had to reinstall. so, my total outlay was actually about 18.00, plus whatever inflation on the 3.00 had accrued.  Anyway, I have it.

I did some listening. both versions of the Bandoneon sound like real Bandoneons. The Dim Pro (Accordion 2) does sound better, but probably because the wizards who made Dim Pro enhanced it, as they did all the stuff on there. It's a great synth, as we all know. I then got the idea of trying to identify where NI got their Bandoneon for Bandstand. (Are all these words with "Band" in them confusing you? Then there's Bandcamp. and Bandlab, of course. Why is the universe so confusing?).  Anyway, they got it from Sonic Reality. I went to their site, but it's not to be found anywhere. However, in one of their collections, World something, they have Accordion 2. Which could be the same thing that Dim Pro has. I have previously wondered if the two inst's. were in fact the same. they sound very similar. And now it looks like they could in fact be identical. IOW, the Bandoneon in NI Bandstand and the Accordion 2 in Dim Pro may in fact be the same sampled inst. These samples do get around, don't they?

On the other hand, the Tango Accordion in Xpand, while sounding very much like a Bandoneon, is, I'm pretty sure, a different inst. So I've solved two problems here. I now have two good Bandoneons, one from Dim Pro, and one from Xpand. Plus I have a decent vintage GM-style VST or Rompler. (I prefer to say VST,  Rompler keeps making me think of Romper Room, which I hated as a kid).

I got Xpand!2, definitely worth 15.00. The Tango Accordion is decent. In fact, the whole thing is decent, especially for the money. If I never get Bandstand working again, I now have a reasonable substitute. So mission accomplished there, I have a decent GM set again.

I just need to determine which Bandoneon sounds like an actual Bandoneon. The one in Xpand (the Tango Accordion), or the one in Dim Pro (which is Accordion 2). I'm going to do some listening to real Bandoneon recordings. I'm used to the one in Bandstand, and the Dim Pro version is very close to that. But it's possible the one in Xpand is closer to the real sound. 

Thank you abacab for the suggestion. 

13 hours ago, scook said:

here is a free one

https://syntheway.com/Free_Reed_Aerophone_Instruments.htm

maybe it will do

I'm sure it would do nicely, but I'm pretty sure it's not free. There is a free demo, but it costs about 60.00 to buy. I think the word "free" refers to the nature of the reed. not the cost of the instrument.