Tim Smith

4 hours ago, Matt Rayner said:

If your friend's guitar plays more easily then you need to get a setup. You'll be amazed how much difference a properly cut nut and bridge can make to your playing and also the intonation. Shouldn't cost much. There are literally hundreds of YT vids showing how to do it.

Back to the barred chords. On an acoustic? Occasionally a Bm. Otherwise use your thumb!

Start with that C chord, using 4 fingers (string - fret - finger:) 2-1-1 , 4-2-2 , 5-3-4 , 6-3-3 Alright! Play that for a bit.

Now, keep your 1st finger where it is, and move the other 3 - in that exact same shape - to the 3 strings directly below where they now are. And stick your thumb on the first fret of the low e-string. Ta-da! An F. You can use that shape all up the neck and you'll never need a bar chord again. Just like Jimi Hendrix 😉

I got a price in a little guitar shop I came across in my travels of 65.00 for a setup. It was probably roughly set up at GC, I say probably. Maybe not.

I'll give this a try and thanks.

3 hours ago, John Vere said:

Being a person who most of my life I played 50/50 acoustic and electric. But I never liked Dreadnought type acoustic guitars.
I seek out shorter scale and smaller body’s. I had a Yamaha APX 7 for like 20 years. Sounds boring unless you plug it in which is what I always do anyways. 

My latest is a Epiphone L00-studio. It has a pretty decent acoustic sound so big step up from the Yamaha. It has a smaller body and shorter scale Length. 
Short scale solves the tension issues with out compromising anything else.

I also use minimum of 52-11 gauge because lighter than that definitely looses tone. Other than bending notes a whole step I can play it like my electric. 

This is why I bought my Martin several years ago because it didn't feel too big and it works well for less overt playing. Compared to my other acoustics it doesn't have near the projection, and that seems to be the tradeoff. Smaller body, less projection if playing it unplugged. It's great for light finger picking. 

I didn't notice how much of a difference it made until I played it and compared it to the Alvarez which is what I would call a small dreadnaught. I have the jumbo Epiphone Masterbuilt. It'is a well made guitar with wonderful tone, but for me it feels HUGE compared to the Martin which has a far smaller body. I don't tend to play it as much even though it's a better guitar. Anything I ever recorded with the Martin lacked umph.

I see the Alvarez as a compromise. It's slightly bigger than the Martin, but not as large as the Epiphone. They also put a bevel where your right arm rests which makes it a very comfortable guitar to play. I have pretty much gotten used to it now and don't notice that it's slightly smaller.

19 minutes ago, mark skinner said:

I've mainly played acoustic (and do have an easily played Yairi) for 50 years, and I still haven't found much use for full barred chords.     ms

I should have bought one when I was looking at them. Nice guitars. Especially the older ones.  If you haven't found much use for them that says quite a lot.

4 hours ago, Bridget Murphy said:

Sometimes, the influence of teachers and experiences can shape our interests and beliefs in unexpected ways. It's understandable to be cautious about certain genres or spiritual paths based on your knowledge and experiences.

It seems everything in one way or another influences us, would you agree? I tend to generalize an experience on a whole lot of people which really isn't being entirely fair. Deep down I know this, yet it's the only experience I have so it influenced me.

I have learned I prefer to be out of boxes, but still find myself in them at times. We all grow over time. As a Christian I see lots of boxes constructed by other Christians which are largely unnecessary. And being what I am in this time has challenges as it isn't overall generally well recieved often due to the way many see it. Some genre or individuals will lead me away from the ideal so I mostly avoid them. 

I have come a long way as I once entertained all music that seemed to be tapping into the magical which is glamourized. It was an interesting novelty, but the connotations of magic imply sleight and that's basically what it is in that context with respect to motive. Not that my side doesn't believe in it. It's all about the motive and the source.

The forums here are generally intentionally shallow and that seems to be how forums almost all are now. Since this isn't a philosophy area, I'll get my coat  There are other forums I go to for that. No not John's forum either.

On 3/13/2024 at 5:09 PM, mettelus said:

I find it ironic that you mentioned both of these. Reason being is that early on in my learning, the power went out (which only happened once when I was at USNA, which is a government facility and never should have happened as the backups failed as well) so I was left in nearly total darkness for over an hour (the rooms did not have emergency lighting, only the hallways and stairs did). That single "Act of God" did more to kick start proficiency than I ever would have suspected... suddenly I was blind and could only rely on my ears and proprioception/kinesthesia (sense of body/hand positions and motion) in order to play. I learned more in that hour than in the prior two months combined because of it.

Over a decade earlier, my piano teacher had said "stop looking at your hands" and pulled the key cover out over everything but the very tips of the white keys. That power outage made me chuckle immediately and I said to my room mate, "Stop looking at my hands, aye" and kept right on going.

Just turning off the lights at night and intentionally playing in the dark can give a massive boost to skills/senses that truly need to be developed rather than relying on one's eyes.

I am finding that for the most part it's just a comfort sort of placebo for the fingerings I know . Sometimes I seem to play better not looking. I like to know I can look if I need to look which is probably one of the beginner syndromes. 

I was trying to play a G/AM7/G/C  and then that same run with a D/D7 at the end. The hard thing for me was getting back to the C fast from G. If I played G2 and C2 that's much easier.  That's a pretty major fingers shift for me where I'm using my pinkie finger on the E string when playing G. Just muscle memory I guess. I must have played it 50 times last night and still arrived at the C slightly late. The only trick I could come up with was to only play the strings my fingers landed on so the later notes were a few milliseconds behind and sounds like I played it deliberate. I am beginning to feel the C without looking now. 

It's really a keys song, but I would be dragging a keyboard there for one song. I need to make a decision soon. It's easy to play on keys for me, but I think the guitar gives it more character. My wife must go nuts hearing me go over it again and again.

I watched some dude on Youtube playing it  on guitar. He was just straight up strumming it. To me it didn't sound as good as the way I'm doing it. It seems most guitar training is just training strummers.

Just now, Wookiee said:

@Tim Smith OK I won't ask 😉

Heavy metal rhythm is pretty easy to play. Solos? That's another thing altogether.

16 hours ago, AndyB01 said:

If you look at how classical guitarists hold their guitar, you'll notice the fretting hand is higher than the picking hand and the weight of the guitar is supported at an angle - often using a footstool (an upturned waste bin works just as well).

You don't have to be extreme about it, but tilting the guitar in this way and modifying your playing position can radically improve your technique and help you develop an effective barré that you can play with a relaxed hand.

It's not for everyone, but worth a try to see if it works for you. It's not a magic trick however, you still need to practice and persevere.

Regards and good luck

Andy

Well I finger pick and sometimes look at my hands which  makes that angle very important for me. When I play out I have a stool to put my right foot on so I can play while standing. Maybe similar? 

It's an easier angle to get those difficult passages for me. When at home I  have a similar angle only I'm sitting. Some of that is probably just inexperience in needing the confidence to know where my hands are without looking. On some chords I know, but on others I feel better having the ability to glance at mainly my left hand. 

16 hours ago, Wookiee said:

It seems the trend these days is very much to use triads on only three strings, I see so many rhythm guitarist playing the G & D strings.

For electric guitar too many strings at once amped with distortion is nothing but mud. Don't ask me how I know that  

@Old Joad Thanks!

5 hours ago, mettelus said:

Barre chords on even an electric can be taxing, so upping the tension with an acoustic just adds to the need for hand strength. Lighter gauge will lower tension (and action) a smidge, but if you are not familiar with doing mods, it is definitely preferable to having a luthier modify things like the nut. I sent @Grem down a rabbit hole replacing his fret nut on a kit he got [we still need a final build version of that guy BTW (I think, I might have missed it)], and he experienced something I never saw or even expected... that nut had been glued in with so much glue on three sides that in broke into pieces taking it out.

If the play-ability is already an 8 or 7 from your perspective, the hand strength is probably really it. Most people quit guitar because of the time it takes to build callouses/strength, so just keep that in mind as you go... be sure to stretch hand muscles and give yourself rest periods as you work things out.

One thing I know. Unless my health gives out I will NEVER lay down guitar.  :)......long story, but I diverted to learn another instrument. This took valuable time away from guitar practice, so I'm back in that grove now. Last night I played the same song on both keyboard and guitar. Guitar was the clear winner for that song in terms ot how it felt playing it in addition to expressiveness. Not in all cases, but in that case guitar won. The power can go out and I still have an instrument I can play. With my keyboards not so.  And in front of an audience I much prefer a guitar over a piece of plastic in front of me, but some things I just can't play as well on guitar.

I tried tuning down 1/2 step. I think that could work for some things and I appreciate that suggestion. It was especially useful where my vocal range is pushing it.

Could be my strings. The guitar seemed to loose some tone whan I did that. Didn't project as well in addition to my high strings being almost too 'twangy'. It  made playing easier though overall. I can play F maybe three different ways none very fast and no barr yet. I'll stay at it. 

3 hours ago, 53mph said:

I write almost exclusively in alt tunings on acoustic guitar, and I use a lot of alt barre chords up and down the neck.  I tend to down-tune my strings, which means the tension is a bit more forgiving on the fingers. Try tuning down.

My best advise for playing barre chords is to build up your finger muscles. The fact I also play piano might help with that. There was a time when I did boxing, which helped build up hand muscles (I favoured bare knuckles against a punch bag) or you could use those finger strengthening tools for guitarists. Ultimately, the best way is to work through the pain until you're comfortable with the chords.

Maybe plugged in I won't loose tone down tuning. On this guitar it seemed to dampen the tone unplugged.

I got through the fingertip pain. Now I guess I need to develop strength for the barr chords. I'm left handed, but I don't think my left fingers are really any stronger than my right hand fingers. Maybe more dexterity. I don't own a piano, but played one for years elsewhere. I mostly play keys. Those lighter keys are probably not helping me much. Thanks for your comments.

Welcome to the forum @PascalHP !!!

I guess you can tell many of us have been here a very long time. It seems you back a few years as well unless you were only teething then.

I probably should not be here because I seldom even think about opening Cakewalk any more. The other software forums are boring as watching grass grow. We have interesting characters here and they tolerate each other pretty well.

I had not heard about Cakewalk once again being a paid product. We shall see.

On 3/9/2024 at 5:36 AM, Nicolas T. said:

Same here... I'm really disappointed by the new explorer/tagging systems... perhaps It's not suited for people with so much plugins ? I miss the "old" live 11...   

I'll admit that part of it threw me for a loop. I am not organized. I realize this is supposed to help, but now I need to go through my 1000's of plug ins and try to make sure I have all of them.

Compared to cakewalk and others, I never liked their scan system. Why can you only select a few folders when plug in makers put them all over the place?

26 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

For me that would be a blessing.

Sorry things are not going so well. I remember a few years ago when Cubase updated their license center. That took several direct emails to technical service reps to get it ironed out.

12 beta has been out for a year, so I'm surprised a work around wasn't presented. They have lots of mac users making this a bigger deal.

I loaded Ableton 12 on two computers, both running Windows 10. A desktop running winpro and the other running the home version on a lappy. No issues on either one that I can tell so far. 

The only differences I noted was my desktop loaded a new C++ version before it loaded everything else. My other computer didn't seem to have done that.

The new file setting will take some getting used to. Not sure if it "seen" all of my plugs and instruments at this point.

6 minutes ago, pwal³ said:

He probably couldn't play guitar and resorted to something he could squeeze to make noise. 

21 hours ago, Pragi said:

Yep, I recommend to start to play Barre chords not on the first fret ( F may).
 Start with the 5the or the 7th fret (A or B major.) cause the first fret is on  guitars often very hard to hold.

It's useful to practice the arpeggios of this chord to relax your hands during the learning session.

If you do so, try minor (Barre -) chords as well. 

Have fun.

Thanks. I hope I didn't miss anyone. I appreciate all comments. Keep em coming !

22 hours ago, craigb said:

Don't give up!

(But, maybe you can stretch your fingers to make them a bit longer? 🤔😜)

Hey, if Tony Iommi can do it, so can you! 😁

Doing this on an electric would of course be a lot easier. Longer fingers? I think you might be thinking of something else.

20 hours ago, Pragi said:

Yep, I recommend to start to play Barre chords not on the first fret ( F may).
 Start with the 5the or the 7th fret (A or B major.) cause the first fret is on  guitars often very hard to hold.

It's useful to practice the arpeggios of this chord to relax your hands during the learning session.

If you do so, try minor (Barre -) chords as well. 

Have fun.

Thanks for your advice. I will give this a go.

15 hours ago, mettelus said:

This is sort of subjective, but may have impact as you go up the neck with barre chords because it can throw intonation off (and become significantly harder to fret the barre). You also want to use the side of your index finger rather than face, because it is more bony and will fret the barre better.

The basic barre chords are pretty simple. E/Em is the open chord using all 6 strings, and A/Am is the open chord using only the top 5 strings. If you barre where the nut is, you can transpose that up the fret board by shifting the root (where your "cheat F" came from). Power chords just use the bottom three strings from either (same fingering) and get used a lot in music, more specifically because they only contain the root, 5th, and octave (no 3rd), so they have no innate major/minor character and can be placed on top of anything.

Back to the first part... if the neck has any bowing, the pressure required to barre a chord may increase a lot as you move up the neck. For Em, you can also wrap your middle finger over your index to get more force. Depending how hard it frets, you can also consider power chord for some things and use a barre chord based on D to do the upper strings as needed.

Also, if you are focused specifically on the E barre chord (all 6 strings), you can alternatively tune the guitar to E (or Em even) at the nut to allow you to reinforce your index finger by wrapping your middle finger over it. Em would allow for using the barre more simply (as your ring finger can make it major), but for some songs, guitars have been tuned to E (which makes all the harmonics also in key), just beware to use a lighter string gauge if you do that since you will add more tension to the neck.

She Talks to Angels is a good example of a guitar tuned to E (and use of the harmonics for the piece).

 

It probably isn't you, but I'm not understanding some of this. I played a lot in D tuning but it isn't very versatile for all around playing. Some metal bands even tune to C or C#. Then we are getting into baritone territory.

Tuning in E sounds interesting if I could work around new chord structures.  Right now I play Em on the 2nd fret A and D which is easy peasy.  I just changed my strings to 52-11 s coated instead of 12s and that seems to help. I believe the setup is pretty good but maybe could be set a little lower. I say that because I have had guitars with terrible setup and you punch holes in your finger tips with those guitars. This is decent as far as I can tell.

I have been using that double finger technique for F chord on the E and B and that seems to work. Being more of a finger picker I can just play only the strings necessary If I barr all but the last string I can play a decent chord minus the lowest string. I am not comfortable with any of that yet though. I am just grabbing the F Chord with the first 4 or 5 strings. I imagine that's all some guitarists ever play, especially if you are multitasking. If I leave off the high E it's some pleasant minor thing going on that fits sometimes.

13 hours ago, mettelus said:

Another quick comment, since I have seen fret nuts too high on enough occasions to mention this. Another way to deal with string tension is to tune the entire guitar a half step down, then work one fret higher for what you are doing now (that will address tension, but not action). If the nut itself is too tall, you can also put a capo on the first fret and tune that to standard tuning at the first fret (guitar will still be half a step down) which may address both fret action and string tension. Again, you would need to play one fret higher than you do now for the same results.

Depending on guitar model, truss rod adjustments may be possible to accommodate fret action for the the string gauge used, but that is more something to mention at this point.

Hmmmm. I could just capo that 1st fret so I don't accidentally play it, but no then I would be a half step higher. That would be a brain game for me. I'm going to try it though, maybe on my old Martin. Thanks!

I am playing a Chinese made Alvarez that's a cheaper knock off of the Yairi. Not hand made and not from Japan, but it has some of that dna and a beautiful sound. I did sand the bridge but I don't think I hardly took anything off of it. I was afraid I would go too far, so it.s maybe only a couple of thousanths less. Thought about taking the bridge down some more. Hesitant to play with the nut as it's glued in place and probably hard to change if I goof it up. Most of it is probably just me needing to work up hand strength.  On a scale of 1-10 set up is probably an 8 or a 7. 

11 hours ago, Base 57 said:

Find someone local to you to set-up your guitar. Inexpensive guitars can be dramatically improved with proper set-up. If a guitar is difficult to play, it is more difficult for you to improve as a player.

Not too many of those around here in my area. There is guitar center, but I'm concerned that would be like giving a jet to a six year old to fly. I hate to say that but they don't exactly exude professionalism around here. I will give it another look though. It isn't a top tier guitar but I don't want inexperienced hands messing with it. It's my little baby, and for what it is, it's very nice.

11 hours ago, RBH said:

A decent guitar set-up is essential. If you don't understand the mechanics enough to attempt a good set-up yourself, It might be worth having a local tech have a look at it.I can tell you that it's a pretty rare occurrence that you can't make significant improvement.

Duly noted. What do you think of GC for guitar setups?

10 hours ago, Grem said:

Agree with others about getting your guitar setup by a professional. You will get the most improvement that way.

After that, lots of practice will help get you going in the right direction. There is no way around it if you would like to do it right. 

And then there are the shortcuts that you know and others have mentioned. Nothing wrong with that at all. If it gets the job done, who cares?

But to get your fingers in shape will take time, effort, and a lot of pain!! Just stick with it, it is worth it. 

Luckily I'm in the callus stages, but yeah I need to look one of those guys up and have it done right. I will sit and noodle on the thing all evening. Like I mentioned, I have had bad set ups and was too naive to know what the problem was thinking all guitarists must have leather fingers and extra muscles in their hands lol.

8 hours ago, Rain said:

I can do barre chords no problem but most of the time I use my thumb for the root note because it's more comfortable and more convenient in many cases. My classical guitar teacher used to hit my thumb with a ruler all the time because it wouldn't stay behind the neck of the guitar.

She had small hands, and sometimes I almost envied her - took her her whole index to hold a barre. Me, there's a lot of finger left and a lot of my hand just hanging out there doing nothing except putting my wrist in an uncomfortable position. 

And you got to use what you got. I have big hands, and big thumbs, so I try to make that work for me. 

You have huge hands. I always thought that was an advantage. I am more like your teacher was. Lots of advantage there in reaching distant frets IMHO. 

Like you say, gotta use what we have. One guitarist I know of is missing part of a finger and is world class. At least part of it is the fingers getting the instructions from the brain to do the right things at the right times. I'm not totally there yet. Muscle memory is beginning to get better.Thanks Rain.

12 hours ago, Shane_B. said:

A barre(d?) F chord is very difficult and my least favorite to play. I don't use barre chords in general, but I guess it's important to be able to do them for, reasons?

I don't really barre all the strings. I keep my finger in an arch for an F up to Ab. I can lay my finger flat when I get up to A.

That's on acoustic. On electric I can bar flat fingered all the way down to F.

I prefer to use open chords though and use a capo a lot these days. You can really embellish songs a lot with open chords. I started using a capo as the pain in my hands got worse. It's actually very painful for me now to attempt barre chords.  And with the material I like to play, they really don't add anything to the song in terms of fullness.

99% of the time if I have a need to play a barre F, I just use 5 strings and skip the full barre and low F note.

The important thing is, how does it sound? If it works is it cheating? Not in my book, however to advance my playing I think barrs are in my future. Just seems very different from the way I think. It's going to take some practice to get there for me. Until then I can still play. I totally get health issues. Two of my fingers were numb for awhile because of medication I was taking.

15 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Instead of trying to squeeze with your hand, use the muscles in your arm to pull your hand against the fretboard.

Will give that a go. I don't guess I'll break my guitar neck.

 I know most of the basic guitar chords. I have been using a few 'cheater' chords to get by. I wasn't blessed with long fingers and since I fingerpick I can generally just play the strings I can fret on chords like F . I had been playing the cheater F which is close to the C chord and really works well. The action on my acoustic is somewhere in the middle. No where near as easy as an electric but not bad either for an acoustic. One of my buds has a Yairi and it frets SO easy.  I don't have a Yairi, so I need to play this thing. 

If I can get to a barred F I can carry that down the neck to other chords. "If".   For those who play those barred chords a lot on acoustic guitar, can you give me any tips? 

Give up guitar? I won't do that. I can get by on that cheat F, but would prefer to learn the barrs.

I wanted a completely wireless setup on stage, so I took my old Casio PX5S 88 key synth which can be powered with internal batteries. I recently ordered a Lekato wireless midi connector. It recharges on litium battery, has both in and out and isn't technically bluetooth. 2.5 khz I think? 

I can report back on how it worked out. I also made my guitar and mic wireless.

My idea was to play through a vsti on my laptop. 

I have never seen the need to use two DAWS. I simply build my stuff as audio takes in on my left monitor on the loops section. Then I arrange it to my liking. I have both loops and linear on two screens. 

Then I hit record and it all records to the right screen or linear.(there is a dedicated button for that process)  

I will then either load the export as a wav into TRacks or Ozone for mastering.  If at any time I wanted to rearrange the song it's simple since the loops section is most similar to Cakewalk's arranger section but works much better. JUst drag things where you like them and make another take to linear.

I have Cubase pro and see no need for it.

I would agree. Cash cow is a good way to describe it. I almost went deaf with their vocoder plugin when it decided to cut loose full gang in my headphones. 

1.56 gigs zipped? Maybe 10 gigs unzipped at most. Could be more like 5. That's a pretty small footprint compared to many others.

If the whole thing is only 1.56 gigs were are almost into rompler territory.

3 hours ago, aidan o driscoll said:

@Tim Smith I did see in one of the 11 to 12 type reviews a guy saying he uses Ableton as much as possible with Abletons OWN instruments and efx, doesnt use any external VSTs if he can avoid it. Finds workflow far quicker etc etc

I wouldn't do this with some DAWs, but I do find myself using the compressors and Eqs in standard 11 a lot  for basic track control. Guitar amps are meh. I would rather use Guitar Rig 7.

Another benny of Ableton is the tons of hardware made for it out there. My Arturia MKII is flawless with it. I have tended to use 3rd party instruments, but maybe I should look at what's in there. I haven't ventured very far into that territory as of yet. The DAW is generally pretty cpu light for what I do in it. I would say more so than many others with the exception of maybe Reaper, but I never got on well with Reaper. Using the stuff made in the stuff for the stuff has to have some benefit. They seem to have maximized things very well in the ecosystem.

I was looking for just a nice piano sound in Omnishphere the other day and could not find one. They are all the weird dreamy ones. A couple of solid keyboard bread and butter sounds would be nice and I would likely use them if included.

There's a lot in even 11 I never used. I'm not really a synth tweaker to a large degree and  I just play stuff in midi sometimes making small corrections. I don't write from start to finish in midi sequencer style, but apparently many do. It's great for that. One thing that I really liked was the ability to slow down or speed up the tempo of a pre recorded song audio and midi and still have it sound realistic. You can select the algorhythm and yes "if" you change both the speed and the key it might begin to sound funny all depending.

 Even in standard these's a lot in there. Max has a decent orchestra in it. That isn't something I ever see myself using very often and I don't tweak much I put things in that work and use them.

I have my download license. Just a matter of finding the time to do it.

3 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

All of our opinions and experiences are valid. I think once you delve into, say ezDrummer and compare it in terms of functionality, stability, worflow, capabilities, realism and quality, it's going to be difficult to keep investing in BFD. I use SD3 and think it's excellent.  I sometimes use AD2 and NI's acoustic drum libraries, which are good, but certainly not in the same ballpark as SD3. That experience especially would make it hard to accept the kind of problematic history of BFD3 in the InMusic era.

I get that current BFD3 customers are invested , but it's almost like Stockholm Syndrome (I am writing that half serious). They're grateful just that the product doesn't have major bugs at this moment. Expectations should be much higher than that, IMO. But InMusic has kept expectations ridiculously low. IMO, InMusic needs to establish a track record and work on its current negative brand image by creating a track record of non-problematic software that is competitive in their respective categories; they have yet to even start on that (BFD3 is certainly not a competitive product; it's not even VST3 and only recently been getting reports that it's running without major bugs, by the admission of one of their own development team members). They aren't there yet with BFD3. But I sincerely hope they'll get there. I am paying attention. 

I guess my expectations are maybe lower and really you have it right, that they should support and update. At this deal though I still think it's great if a person can run VST2 ok in their DAW.

Reminds me of Acid pro. Those guys sat on that for years. Did little in the way of improvment. Another bought it. Finally wrote it to 64bit Windows 10/11. Not a top notch DAW but pretty ok for looping. Looked similarly like they lost most of their user base. 

Yeah for anyone with a collection of plugins and vsti I don't see the need to pull the trigger on Suite. My upgrade path price for standard was 127$.

Only real advantage to suite would be that all of the files are organized and most anything you need is there if you are new to mixing and don't have anything, I think it's a good tool kit for that. I probably would not buy it for the asking price as a noob, but I have seen licenses for sale used which might be  a way to do it.

Noob would be better to start with the basic free version first to get a feel for it IMO. My updrade to suite from 11 standard was 225$ not bad if I didn't have anything else, but one can't hardly frequent this section of the forum and "not have anything"

If my computer blew up tomorrow and I was forced to reload everything, I might consider it then and just omit all of the half crap plugins I have I never use any more. Stream line things.....maybe.

I hate to tell you I was clearing a lappy yesterday and Cakewalk went bye bye. It's still on my desktop. For now.

15 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

Yes, that is as I understood it and Drew, the very friendly developer from the BFD3 team seems like a very nice guy.

But my point is that experience and the history of neglect and major software problems and poor support are still important considerations. It's 13 years after BFD3 was originally introduced and most of the years since InMusic has bought the product, they've created more problems with the software and haven't committed the  resources one would expect to maintain and improve the product. 13 years without a major update for a software product is a heck of a long time. To me, those are glaring red flags that a company is not committed to a product.  The bar should be higher for InMusic than just fixing bugs. 

InMusic's ttrack record with BFD3 -- and the other software they've acquired -- raise a lot of red flags. Even if they finally come out with BFD4 and price it at say $199 US and make it fairly competitive features-wise, I will consider BFD4, but that history and should be a factor with everyone evaluating the purchase. If  BFD4 is released to rave reviews -- and I hope it is, because I'd be happy to buy a great new acoustic drum plugin -- the BFD3 history of problems and neglect gives me -- and I'm sure a lot of the market -- pause. InMusic has the money to make this a better product and support it. But historically, they haven't done that. Even if BFD4 is excellent, the very valid lingering question is, will InMusic support and advance the product or neglect it like they did in the past. One of my good friends, a developer, bought BFD3 early on, but eventually deleted it from his hard drive and urged me not to upgrade to it even when it was less than 50 bucks because of the history of problems and neglect. Again, I'd love to see the product become great. But I'm not willing to take a risk. I'll let you guys tell me about it before I take the leap. 

Non drummer here, so please take my comments as maybe uneducated and with a grain of salt. My goal is to pull a beat I think works with a song idea period.

I would prefer a set of beats that sound uber realistic and have built in fillers that sound like a real drummer. Most of the drums in my mixes are simple and probably not to the liking of an experienced drummer. I still think BFD has probably one of the best collection of drums in the industry and they were ahead of their time when it came out, so for me, other than the VST2 thing I would pull it in a heart beat if it had something I liked. That's the other thing with this. Some of these drum programs are released with  barely anything decent while others are released with plenty. The idea being that, yes you bought the software but you also need this and this and this to really have something you can use. They are all pretty much like that now and since it's hard to test 500 drum paks, it's nice to have like a good starter set. I believe BFD 3 has that. When I bought it paying much more, I intended it to be my only drum program ever. It did stand up to that expectation for a long time for the most part.

When InMusic bought them it was underwhelming for me. And no one told me. I just tried to launch it and got a " this thing won't work" screen. Then I realized it needs to dial into a server blah blah blah. I have used it since, but man what a pain to always wonder if I need to once again connect with their server. That's really been my only hang up. I honestly wondered if they were going to hang around after that. I didn't want to come back to a mix a year later and not have working drums. 

If I was a real drummer I would have figured out how to build realistic tracks from scratch using maybe just the samples in Sampletank.  I have way to many drum programs at this point, and almost dread looking through all of them to find something, so for awhile there I just settled on AD2 and it worked well. I tried EZD new version and like it so far, so maybe it's my new main drum program. I had issue in trying to match a track to drums using the AI in it, but my tempos tend to be different sometimes.

Man they are practically giving it away now.

I guess it depends on how a person works. I seldom get an entire tune in my head all at once, so it's great for immediate tracking in the loop section and then all of that can be put together to make something. I don't think any other DAW does that as well. 

If you track bands and have large counts then I could see Studio One or PT. 

However plenty use it for this too.

The scales and keys addition looks interesting. 38gigs for standard. I went for it upgrading from 11.