MIDI Signalflow

[Glenn Stanton]

is the issue that you have multiple MIDI devices sending DAW control signals? in my setup, i have one device which (in addtion to all the other MIDI info) is the controller of DAW commands (Start, stop, etc) and the other simply provides note, velocity, modulation etc and volume information. i guess technically i could use the non-controller to send commands as well but i just don't). if it's things like program changes, presumably that is based on the channel rather than the controller MIDI.

[Bass Guitar]

58 minutes ago, Astraios said:

For example, if you start triggering two different plugins with two hardware MIDI controllers, the Sonar remote control function can't distinguish between ports, so overlaps occur very quickly, and you suddenly control two things with a single command

I explained how to prevent this by using midi channels. As I said I used Sonar Live and had no problem playing the synth I needed. I see no issue with using 2 controllers either. You just choose the channel you want to use. To here the sound input Echo has to be on and you can set it to be Globally on for all instruments. 

I don't know how many people have explained what input echo is for but somehow your not understanding that. Its a simple matter of not desiring how you think it should work it's a matter of understanding how it does work and learn that so you can take control. 

[Wookiee]

@Astraios are you sure you have set the tracks sending to these devices to receive on specific MIDI ports & channels. If you are using omni then it will receive on all channels. 

[Amberwolf]

8 hours ago, Astraios said:

 But if you could block individual inputs, then Sonar wouldn't even need to distinguish what's coming in. So there's no way to temporarily exclude a device from the MIDI flow? That means Sonar lets all MIDI data in unfiltered at once, unless you deactivate the device in Preferences --> MIDI Devices. So "All Devices In" is actually it's nature.

If you set a specific input port and channel on a track, only data from that should end up recorded on that track.   If something else is happening, I'd call that a bug.  

If you require more than one device input to a track, the only way I am aware of is to set it to All-Inputs (either picking a specific channel or leaving it at Omni)

If doing that, then without using some form of external filtering before it reaches Sonar), everyting on all the ports (and channel (s) chosen) would be recorded on that track. 

External hardware-input filtering could be accomplished by using MIDI Loopback type drivers, and passing all MIDI ports via those into a separate program that either does this filtering as a primary function built in, or hosts VST / MFX that can then do the desired filtering.  I don't have any list of such hosts, but there should be some out there.   (even other DAWs could be used for that purpose alone if they support the necessary functions and routing). 

 

 

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

Based on my intuition, without understanding the programming aspect, it should be the case that when Echo is off, no more MIDI data is active from the MIDI device. I don't know if that's even technically possible...? 

All Echo does is Echo the input directly from the input selection to the output selection, for that track, regardless of playback or record states. It changes nothing about what is or isn't recorded to the track, or played back from the track.

For instance, if you don't have the track armed for recording, everything will still be echoed from the input port/channel to the output port/channel, and will pass thru any track FX on the way.

Even if you don't have the transport running, so that no track data is being output, Echo should still do it's job.  (I think it will stop if the audio engine is not running, however).

When echo is not on, the data cannot reach the output until it first is recorded onto the track, and then subsequent playback of those regions will output that data to the output port/channel. 

 

This is true of audio or MIDI. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

Just to clarify again: The whole problem only becomes apparent with extensive remote control projects. For example, if you start triggering two different plugins with two hardware MIDI controllers, the Sonar remote control function can't distinguish between ports,

I have a feeling that is a separate issue from the track input selections and filtering.  I don't have a way to test this here ATM, but you've already likely done enough testing to determine:

 

If a synth (whcih is using MIDI Learn / remote control on it's fucntions) has been inserted on a track that is itself set to only receive from a single port still receives data from multiple ports, then that means the remote control is not using the track input selections at all, and a completely separate port setup and filtering system would have to be coded and built into Sonar to correct this issue--there would be no external way to deal with this without also blocking data from reaching the actual tracks themselves as well, becuase all ports are combined into the Remote control / Learned control system.

If that synth does only receive data from that track's selected input port then all of the filtering options previously specified would work--but I expect from your issues that this is not the case. 

Same for track controls using Remote Control.

 

If the former is the case, the only way I know of to fix this issue is for the bakers to recode Sonar itself to have a tool within it to allow the user to choose which ports and channels are used for each thing that is receiving or sending remote control information (the most versatile method), or for it to obey it's host track's port configuration (which would be problematic for some remote control usages), or some global configuration that all RC things use (extremely limiting and problematic, I suspect).  

 

[Amberwolf]

BTW, for all the readers of the thread, there are, AFAICT, two separate  MIDI routing systems within Sonar.  

 

If this is incorrect, please specify where I've misunderstood or gone wrong.

 

The first is at the MIDI tracks themselves, and obeys all the track controls, etc.  

 

The second is the Remote Control system, which AFAICT without being able to test ATM, does not have any control over which ports or channels are received by or sent from a widget (on a track or inside a synth, etc), it globally recieves or sends this data on all ports. (possilby restricted to hardware ports vs synth's virtual ports internal to Sonar), restricted only by the channel selection when assigning a remote control.  (which cannot be set to send or receive on more than one channel, AFAIK, no Omni option for instance; not sure if there is any reason to be able to have that ability). 

This system is used even if there are NO MIDI tracks at all, as you can use this system to assign RC to audio track controls, for instance, and that is almost certainly why this second system even exists.  

 

This second system is the one Astraios is having issues with, in trying to do external control of assorted things within his projects. 

 

 

Edited Friday at 07:33 PM by Amberwolf

[Astraios]

5 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

Its a simple matter of not desiring how you think it should work it's a matter of understanding how it does work and learn that so you can take control. 

As for my whole life, Eckhart Tolle couldn't have put it better. I'm sorry, but you're right, I've had ADHD my whole life. It's a bit complicated. Thanks anyway.😇

Edited Friday at 11:12 PM by Astraios

[Astraios]

Okay, so here I'm controlling a Z3TA+2 with about 240 CCs (without MIDI Learn) About the SetUp: best watch from minute 8:00 onwards.

 

Edited Friday at 11:13 PM by Astraios

[Astraios]

4 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

I explained how to prevent this by using midi channels. As I said I used Sonar Live and had no problem playing the synth I needed. I see no issue with using 2 controllers either. You just choose the channel you want to use. To here the sound input Echo has to be on and you can set it to be Globally on for all instruments. 

 

You're right. The sonar remote control window can actually process 119 x 16 = 1904 commands. 119 CCs across 16 channels. That should be enough! If you also had the 16 ports, it would be a spectacular 30,464, and nobody would ever need that many... 🫣

 

Unfortunately, you can't save the project-specific assignments to a transferable preset.

Edited Friday at 10:33 PM by Astraios

[Astraios]

4 hours ago, Wookiee said:

@Astraios are you sure you have set the tracks sending to these devices to receive on specific MIDI ports & channels. If you are using omni then it will receive on all channels. 

Hey Wookie, I'm tinkering with this so much right now that I sometimes get things mixed up and everything gets a bit blurry. Sorry for the confusion, but I see things more clearly now.

It's great that so many people responded and took the time to help me.

[azslow3]

23 hours ago, Astraios said:

 So there's no way to temporarily exclude a device from the MIDI flow? That means Sonar lets all MIDI data in unfiltered at once, unless you deactivate the device in Preferences --> MIDI Devices. So "All Devices In" is actually it's nature.

Yes. Than in case particular MIDI track input is set to specific device/MIDI channel/both, only messages from this device/channel are delivered there. Omni Inputs+All channels and "Remote control" are getting all MIDI messages from all devices, always, independent from track "buttons". But there is a separate "Control surfaces" logic, they can block all/particular MIDI messages from particular device, and they can do this dynamically. 

16 hours ago, Astraios said:

Based on my intuition, without understanding the programming aspect, it should be the case that when Echo is off, no more MIDI data is active from the MIDI device. I don't know if that's even technically possible...? 

Just to clarify again: The whole problem only becomes apparent with extensive remote control projects. For example, if you start triggering two different plugins with two hardware MIDI controllers, the Sonar remote control function can't distinguish between ports, so overlaps occur very quickly, and you suddenly control two things with a single command. Meticulous lists have to be kept to prevent this. If it were possible to simply receive data from only one active (MIDI data-sending) device, it would be relatively easy to prevent. 

Remote control (still? I have not checked for a while) also "leak" to MIDI track inputs. Cakewalk is (at least was) not blocking assigned messages.

BTW "Input Echo", as "Mute",  is output related. You are slowly getting to the idea why is some DAWs there is a separate "Enable input" option. But man... (all?) people which try to use the concept after Sonar, initially think that is "not intuitive/wrong/why???" 😏 

13 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

The second is the Remote Control system, which AFAICT without being able to test ATM, does not have any control over which ports or channels are received by or sent from a widget (on a track or inside a synth, etc), it globally recieves or sends this data on all ports. (possilby restricted to hardware ports vs synth's virtual ports internal to Sonar), restricted only by the channel selection when assigning a remote control.  (which cannot be set to send or receive on more than one channel, AFAIK, no Omni option for instance; not sure if there is any reason to be able to have that ability). 

This system is used even if there are NO MIDI tracks at all, as you can use this system to assign RC to audio track controls, for instance, and that is almost certainly why this second system even exists.  

This second system is the one Astraios is having issues with, in trying to do external control of assorted things within his projects. 

This.... And I have tried to explain him why it is not a good idea to use "Remote Control" complicated way. It was not designed to be flexible/complicated. And it was superseded by ACT (till Matrix... ACT has no control over it).

Unfortunately, flexibility is bound to complexity. If you control something "complex", you shouldn't make controlling system  "simple". Most people don't know (even those who should... musicians are not obligated to know that), but there is corresponding theorem. Perpetuum mobile, Gödel's incompleteness theorems, traveling to other galaxy... There are many things we "intuitively" think are possible, but they are not (with proves)... Something/someone has introduced interesting rules in this Universum... 😒

[David Baay]

On 11/13/2025 at 12:09 PM, Astraios said:

Just try it out and route an incoming CC10 / Chn5 from two different hardware controllers in the remote control window

I didn't understand from your original post that you were talking about Remote Control. Remote Control does not allow specifying an Input port as tracks do so naturally it's going to pass everything. And Remote Control messages aren' routed through a MIDI track; the connection between Remote Control and a specified synth parameter is direct. Changing any of this will require a feature request, and the implementation would need to include an option to preserve the current behavior because many users will be depending on the current functionality that doesn't require any routing configuration.

23 hours ago, Astraios said:

it should be the case that when Echo is off, no more MIDI data is active from the MIDI device.

No, it shouldn't. There are many scenarios in which I want a track to record but not echo input - e.g. recording MIDI from a keyboard synth while using Local Control to trigger the synth.

[Bass Guitar]

When you try other Daw’s you will see that Cakewalk and Cubase have been around since day one in using midi. They seem to me to have the very best capabilities for all these different use cases for midi hardware and software. And there are more than you can imagine. 

Go see if you can do something easy like assign a different patch and bank in all those other Daw’s. It’s not there! 
Nobody else has an event list. 

I have never used it but I would hope Ableton live has strong mid routing capabilities as it seems popular with hardware enthusiasts. It seems most daw’s now are focusing on drag and drop creators. Cakewalks Next is a good example. 

A lot of midi hardware that was designed for routing midi seems to have disappeared from the market. Like my Roland A880 midi patch bay. That was a lifesaver in my days of live midi performance. I set it to channel 16. It could reroute 8 inputs and 8 outputs. A lot of my old midi files still have the channel 16 patches in them. I should have never sold it. I see some on EBay and Reverb. Tempted. 
And if you owned it then your problem would be solved. Oh, I forgot, it’s not USB. 
 

Edited 22 hours ago by Bass Guitar

[parboo12]

1 hour ago, Bass Guitar said:

Nobody else has an event list. 

 

Reaper does.

[Astraios]

2 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

When you try other Daw’s you will see that Cakewalk and Cubase have been around since day one in using midi. They seem to me to have the very best capabilities for all these different use cases for midi hardware and software. And there are more than you can imagine. 
 

When it looked like Cakewalk was going under (in 2018/19?), I got FL Studio. It wasn't easy to find my way around. I've been tinkering with Cakewalk since 1996 and have always remained loyal to this DAW, if only because I liked its look. Cakewalk offers many good options, even if it's showing its age at times. I especially like the keybind editor and the ability to create and assign my own shortcuts.

After a heavy, incurable cancer diagnosis in 2018, I immersed myself once again in the world of DAWs because I desperately wanted to learn about EDM ((especially Melodic Dubstep, Future Garage und Psytrance Music) howto  and its techniques, and even create it myself. Currently, I'm focusing intensively on Remote Control.

[Bass Guitar]

1 hour ago, parboo12 said:

Reaper does.

Good to know. But Studio one, Mixcraft and a few others I have demoed don’t. 
 

Yes custom keybindings are very important but I have yet to use a Daw that doesn’t have that. I immediately change the rewind button to W! 
I found it interesting that Vegas used that same keyboard shortcut. 
The other one is the R shortcut. It’s muscle memory. 
 

That great that you are immersing yourself in music no matter what style. Keeps the old brain going. 

[Astraios]

9 hours ago, azslow3 said:

This.... And I have tried to explain him why it is not a good idea to use "Remote Control" complicated way. It was not designed to be flexible/complicated. And it was superseded by ACT (till Matrix... ACT has no control over it).

I don't entirely agree with you there, because FL Studio has further developed precisely this type of remote control, and it's very popular worldwide, especially in the EDM world. Sonar Synthrack has a feature (Assig Controls) where you can open a plugin or softsynth and then record the movements of its switches and knobs, for example, 25 consecutive movements. All the VST parameters are then assigned to them in Synthrack (as controls). This is brilliant, but unfortunately, you can only display a limited number of these assignments; if there are more than 15 or 20... (Show/Hide Assigned Controls)

 

[azslow3]

44 minutes ago, Astraios said:

I don't entirely agree with you there, because FL Studio has further developed precisely this type of remote control, and it's very popular worldwide, especially in the EDM world. Sonar Synthrack has a feature (Assig Controls) where you can open a plugin or softsynth and then record the movements of its switches and knobs, for example, 25 consecutive movements. All the VST parameters are then assigned to them in Synthrack (as controls). This is brilliant, but unfortunately, you can only display a limited number of these assignments; if there are more than 15 or 20... (Show/Hide Assigned Controls)

 

Cakewalk has developed a special system which allows to learn way more controls. (Still) a bit buggy, but works. And for the case you manage more then 15-20 assignments, it make sense to have a editing tools for assignments. And they exists. And if you want see all that on a tablet, with names and synced values, there are programs which allow you to do so.

Yes, that system is not "Remote control". It is called "ACT". 

In other DAWs that is usually the same,  "simple"  assignment and "complicated" (surface) control. It can happened FL Studio has a bit more features in the "simple" approach then Sonar in its "Remote control". These DAWs are different from many perspectives.