MIDI Signalflow

[Astraios]

Well, that's really puzzling me... all echoes are off and all tracks are muted, and yet I can still record MIDI notes with both hardware MIDI controllers at the same time. There is something I don't quite understand about the MIDI signal architecture, or have I set something incorrectly in the preferences?  🙃

I've experimentally created a MIDI track for each channel of my two MIDI controllers that sends MIDI data. I haven't given up on trying to send two identical CCs on the same channel with both MIDI controllers while triggering two different VST parameters. Oh well, nobody cares anyway, right? 

 

[Sailor55]

24 minutes ago, Astraios said:

Oh well, nobody cares anyway, right?

Well, I might care if I better understood what you're saying. But first answer me this. Why should muting all tracks and disabling all echos defeat the recording of incoming midi data? You are recording and data is coming in. What am I missing? 

[Wookiee]

@Sailor55 I suspect "Mute" only silences the Audio engine. Are you using SIT tracks or split tracks?

SIT Simple Instrument Tracks used by VSTi which combine both Audio and MIDI in one track.

Split Audio Tracks show separate Audio and MIDI tracks fir VSTi.

[Bass Guitar]

Exactly. The mute and input echo only involve the audio generated by the Soft Synth. 

Midi data is not stopped.

And if you have selected midi output in the VST as well as a hardware output in midi preferences devices then your controller will pass through to the hardware.
You need to disable midi output in the soft synth or preferences. 

input echo , or often called Track Monitor, is used during recording  or live performance so you can hear the audio from the soft synth. It is not needed for playback.
The mute button is obvious to it’s function but it is used to mute the audio output of the synth. It doesn’t mute midi. 
You’ll still see activity on the midi meters. 
 

To stop midi from going to a track you need to select an unused input source. Selecting None normally means that everything is available. 

You can also assign midi channels. 
I used Sonar as my keyboard rig at a few gigs. 

I had 7 different VST instruments each assigned a different input channel. I turned on Global input Echo. 

My Roland A49 only has 2 control knobs. I used midi learn to control the volume as well as chorus or ? 
I just changed output channels to change instruments.  
Was very dependable system but I had to make sure I connected the keyboard before I started Sonar. Otherwise it would revert back to None and everything played at once. I’d have to reassign the channels again. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Bass Guitar

[Glenn Stanton]

also un-check:

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

all echoes are off and all tracks are muted, and yet I can still record MIDI notes

As others have indicated, Mute and Echo only affect the output  of the track and Sonar doesn't care whether you can hear output from a synth; it will still record incoming MIDI regardless. The only thing that would prevent that is if the assigned input channel doesn't match the transmit channel of the controller.

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

I haven't given up on trying to send two identical CCs on the same channel with both MIDI controllers while triggering two different VST parameters.

Not sure how this relates, but there's no obstacle to that. Each VSTi precsents a dedicated virtual MIDI port to the DAW and each port's channels are independent of the others, just like hardware ports.

 

[Astraios]

57 minutes ago, David Baay said:

Not sure how this relates, but there's no obstacle to that. Each VSTi precsents a dedicated virtual MIDI port to the DAW and each port's channels are independent of the others, just like hardware ports.

But I have serious doubts about that, after dealing with this for over a year now. It seems to me that Sonar can't distinguish between the MIDI ports. Just try it out and route an incoming CC10 / Chn5 from two different hardware controllers in the remote control window (--> Clip-Editor). I have experienced it working sometimes, but most of the time all the controls in the synthrack react synchronously and cannot distinguish between them.

Edited 5 hours ago by Astraios

[Astraios]

1 hour ago, Wookiee said:

@Sailor55 I suspect "Mute" only silences the Audio engine. Are you using SIT tracks or split tracks?

SIT Simple Instrument Tracks used by VSTi which combine both Audio and MIDI in one track.

Split Audio Tracks show separate Audio and MIDI tracks fir VSTi.

Mute can also silence a incomming MIDI signal, just try

[Astraios]

3 hours ago, Sailor55 said:

Well, I might care if I better understood what you're saying. But first answer me this. Why should muting all tracks and disabling all echos defeat the recording of incoming midi data? You are recording and data is coming in. What am I missing? 

Sorry for my unqualified question, Sir. So, if I want to record the signals from only three of my five input devices, I have to turn them off, unplug them, or deregister them in the preferences --> MIDI Device to silence them. Otherwise, the signals flow unfiltered into the DAW without me being able to control them? Why shouldn't I be able to decide which signals are included in my project? And why is this question so strange?

And especially in the area of "RemoteCcontrol," Sonar is not to be trifled with, because it can't distinguish which controller the MIDI CC is coming from, and then you'll quickly run into problems with the assignment. It can't detect the port; otherwise, there would be an option to select one in the remote control window.

Edited 5 hours ago by Astraios

[Wookiee]

1 hour ago, Astraios said:

Mute can also silence a incomming MIDI signal, just try

How would you know, if the audio engine is muted? Whilst you might think it would stop the capture of the MIDI data, it might not, obliviously a test must be made.

[user905133]

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

Mute can also silence a incomming MIDI signal, just try

IIRC Mute on a MIDI Track prevents the MIDI Note Data from being routed to a sound source.  So far as I recall, it does NOT prevent the MIDI Note Data from being recorded if the track is set up to record MIDI Data on the MIDI Channel you are using to send from your controller to the track. 

I can't double check this right now, but you can.

I misspoke. I just did a quick test:

Condition 1: Controller sends MIDI Data on Channel 2; Note Data not recorded.

Condition 2: Sound Source Track added to project; Incoming MIDI Data routed to Software Synth.

Notice: Track 1 showed that there is incoming MIDI Data, but (1) there was no audio coming from SI-Electric Piano 1; and (2) no MIDI data was recorded. The small/short lines at the bottom of Track 1 made during the recording shows that there was incoming MIDI Data.

Notice that based on my setup, the MIDI Data from the controller (1) was not recorded and (2) there was no MIDI Data coming from my controller and going to the Soft Synth.

Edited 3 hours ago by user905133
edits (images added)

[Amberwolf]

2 hours ago, Astraios said:

Mute can also silence a incomming MIDI signal, just try

It should stop it from being routed out of the track, but shouldn't stop it from it being recorded, AFAICR I have used this on purpose before (though I am using ancient version, not the modern one which may behave differently) 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Amberwolf

[user905133]

39 minutes ago, Amberwolf said:

3 hours ago, Astraios said:

Mute can also silence a incomming MIDI signal, just try

It should stop it from being routed out of the track, but shouldn't stop it from it being recorded . . . 

Verified (as expected) with my quick test project.

Condition 3: (a) Controller sending MIDI Note Data on MIDI Channel 2 AND  (b) Cakewalk Sonar set to record MIDI Channel 2 Data from All MIDI devices; Track 1 (MIDI Track) - Mute is not activated.  Result: MIDI Data is recorded on the MIDI Track on Track 1 and the Instrument on Track 2 containing the sound source plays the Note Data being set from Track 1 because it is not muted.

THE TEST:  Turn Mute on [i.e., activate Mute] on Track 1.  Repeat the exact same recording.

Viola!!!! Incoming MIDI Data is (a) seen by the MIDI Track and (b) recorded, but (c) since it is not echoed to Track 2 (the sound source) there is no sound to be heard (or recorded on Track 2 IF that record had been set).

Ergo: "It should stop it from being routed out of the track, but shouldn't stop it from it being recorded . . . " = TRUE!

Edited 2 hours ago by user905133

[Astraios]

There's a nice tool in the Microsoft Store called MIDI Pocket. It's freeware and very similar to the MIDI OX program. It also displays MIDI ports and has a MIDI filter. Things I wish Sonar had...

 

 

[azslow3]

I don't know any DAW in which Mute works for Input (audio or MIDI). Mute means "mute the output" (everywhere).

"Input echo" /  Record mode (f.e. "Sound on sound") / "Record arm"  control what goes where and when. "Input stream" and "Existing recording stream" can be merged differently (even at the same time) for output and for recording. There is no "enable input" in Sonar.

There is just one "MIDI Bus" in one MIDI track in Sonar. It can't distinguish different controllers if they send the same MIDI messages. And you can assign "One controller" or "All controllers" as an input.

But there are "Drum maps" and MIDI filtering/converting plug-ins which give some routing/filtering possibilities (plug-ins are always "Effects", so applied after recording).

All that is still in DX MIDI domain and with limited MIDI routing. MIDI in Sonar is not change like 20+ years. May be devs have plans to touch that in the future, but that is unknown... In other words, if you need/want intensive MIDI processing in the DAW, use another DAW(s).