MIDI Controller and Remote CTRL

[Astraios]

What amazes me is that there's a multi-million dollar industry for MIDI controllers, represented at various music and audio trade shows around the world, yet I can only find one page on remote control in the Sonar manual, which is over 1,400 pages long...

Why is the topic of remote control so neglected? Over 15 years ago, I was amazed at how difficult and complicated it was to get anything working with my CME VX MIDI keyboard that involved more than just controlling volume and pan. The entire process is either not documented or only inadequately documented.

What surprises me most, though, is how many users have simply given up on the subject.

Edited August 30 by Astraios

[Astraios]

Hm, correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't even found a picture of the Remote CTRL window in the Sonar manual...

And by the way, can someone help me with the NRPN? I thought the NRPN consists of four parts: MSB 99 (coarse), LSB 98 (coarse), MSB 6 (fine), and LSB 38 (fine), but the Remote Control window only has one entry field?

 

 

[azslow3]

"Remote control" was superseded by other approach long time ago. In Cakewalk it is called "ACT".

(N)RPN is a protocol which allows way more parameters and better accuracy then standard MIDI CCs. Yes, technically it is using CCs you have mentioned. But logically it works as "A knob on my controller sends NRPN 20". So you specify "20" in the configuration (and hope the controller and Sonar agree how to send/receive NRPNs, they usually do).

In case of motorized faders, LEDs and in most cases encoders (CME VX-5+ has motorized faders and encoders), there is no "generic" definition how that should work. MIDI by itself was oriented toward finite knobs/sliders without any feedback. So the solution has to be "complicated". That doesn't mean it should be difficult to use, you normally can switch the device into Mackie emulation mode and use corresponding plug-in. 

But when you switch to "Custom solutions", in case you don't like what Mackie emulation does, the setup is more complicated. Still can be done in 1-2 days. Only when you want DIY everything yourself (write own controlling logic in supported by the DAW language, in case of Cakewalk that is C++), it can take a while... But as you probably know, I have proved even that is possible in less then 15 years 

[Astraios]

35 minutes ago, azslow3 said:

"Remote control" was superseded by other approach long time ago. In Cakewalk it is called "ACT".

 

Hi and thanks for your comment – I've been experimenting with ACT for a few years, but I haven't been able to achieve satisfactory results. The graphical limitation to 8 buttons and 8 controls really got on my nerves... In principle, it seems to be heading in the right direction, but it hasn't been successfully developed further. And what's great, of course, is that you can save presets and thus transfer the settings to another project. Users don't seem to have particularly taken to it either. Unfortunately,I couldn't express my ideas in this system.

However, I was able to make a huge leap forward with Blue Cat's virtual MIDI controller, "Remote CTRL."

Edited Tuesday at 08:43 PM by Astraios

[azslow3]

1 hour ago, Astraios said:

Hi and thanks for your comment – I've been experimenting with ACT for a few years, but I haven't been able to achieve satisfactory results. The graphical limitation to 8 buttons and 8 controls really got on my nerves... In principle, it seems to be heading in the right direction, but it hasn't been successfully developed further. And what's great, of course, is that you can save presets and thus transfer the settings to another project. Users don't seem to have particularly taken to it either. Unfortunately,I couldn't express my ideas in this system.

However, I was able to make a huge leap forward with Blue Cat's virtual MIDI controller, "Remote CTRL."

By ACT I mean the approach, not "ACT MIDI Controller" plug-in. That plug-in is in fact limiting and its limitation has triggered me to write my own ACT plug-in.  I mean AZ Controller (https://www.azslow.com/). Standard Mackie (and all other) is also ACT plug-in.

Creating own virtual surface to make a project one single "instrument" under its control, so "Remote control" the same way as "MIDI Learn" in soft-synths, is a valid approach.  But that is different from generic DAW control, I mean using one device with arbitrary projects. At the beginning I was creating project specific presets, major problem was remembering what controls do in  particular project... With one preset which always works the same way there is no such problem (I guess that is the reason for MCU and alike popularity).  What also helps are actual labels for controls (another MCU/C4 and alike advantage). MIDI does not allow the last, you need OSC (f.e. https://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,295.0.html) or at least a window with such labels (what "ACT MIDI" GUI does... well, not perfectly...).

[Astraios]

Hi azslow3,

I have great respect for your programming skills and your great software. It shows that you're an expert.
I spent hours and days with your software and was stumped by the somewhat sparse, technical GUI.

MIDI Learn is a special feature and, in my opinion, was developed for rudimentary basic control. The big disadvantage is that it only works on one channel and therefore only allows about 120 control commands. Furthermore, you can usually only activate certain VST parameters with it (this varies from plugin to plugin).

I'd also like to point out that the Sonar "Remote Control" also supports the "last selected parameter" function (and isn't that what ACT is all about?). It's unfortunate that you can't access the Sonar remote window with one click...

As long as MIDI controllers aren't able to conveniently label control units, there will probably never be a breakthrough in the remote control world. But that has already changed with the virtual MIDI controller "Touch Portal" and its fully editable interface.

Edited Wednesday at 03:01 PM by Astraios

[Astraios]

Two virtual MIDI controllers. One, Sonar "ACT," is impractical because of its four banks system (4x8 =32  x2 = 64 Controls). It's also difficult to understand. The concept dates back to the days when  Mackie hardware was the ultimate. But in the age of EDM, that's no longer the case.

The other, Blue Cat "Remote CTRL," offers 64 buttons, knobs, and sliders and additional so much more. Also multiple windows with different layouts. It's relativly easy to understand and also easy to use.

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:03 PM by Astraios

[azslow3]

If you have such real device:

And see that on display (mix mode):

and then switch to (ACT mode)...

and may be to (PC mode)...

For me that looks more usable then "Remote control". I will never remember which knob controls what there, also the position is initially not in sync.

I guess you have no problem to find which knob you should turn on BCR to change CA-2A gain, even so you have never worked with it, right? 

And the value is always "in sync". 

 

I mean for long session with  Z3TA, "Remote control" (when connected to real device) has advantages - finite knobs are more "playable" then encoders (at least for me). But for controlling DAW in general, including mix/effects - no way...

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:20 PM by azslow3

[Astraios]

... what do you think about this stuff? 🤔

I'm still experimenting, but the results are getting better and better. The Touch Portal as a MIDI controller has almost unlimited possibilities. Everything happens completely synchronously on the synth.

  Edited Thursday at 11:26 PM by Astraios

[Astraios]

These are the four Z3TA+2 controller matrix built in Touch Portal. I think it's so cool. 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:58 PM by Astraios

[azslow3]

I am not against nice panels 😏

But how have you achieved "Everything happens completely synchronously on the synth"? If you load another preset in Z3TA (or just modify something by mouse), do all these controls reflect related changes?

ACT  /  NKS / Automap (obsolete) / VIP (seems like obsolete) are not working "MIDI way", so they are bi-directional (by design).  "MIDI learn" in a synth requires the synth itself support "send learned MIDI on changes" to be bi-directonal. Long time ago, when I was naively thinking "that should be standard feature", I have found the synths I had tried do not support that. I have just rechecked with Z3TA+2, it is not doing that by default I have found no related options.

MIDI learned control Z3TA+2 doesn't send that MIDI when I operate the control by mouse (or load new preset). But, in turn, synchronization is not possible.

Even simple "catch" behavior is not supported there (some synths have that option). The reason I prefer ACT even for finite knobs, here I can tune how and when physical control modify the parameter (several approaches are possible).

[azslow3]

BTW the last time I have checked Touched Portal, it was not on-pair with Touch OSC in MIDI/OSC activity. And quickly checking now, it is still not...

[Astraios]

Not only are they beautiful panels, they also work so perfectly that sometimes I can hardly believe it myself. 💫

I can control everything on the Z3TA+2 directly and without any detours. Sometimes I need to enable/disable an echo input. The entire control project currently comprises 17 MIDI tracks!! and is quite complex. I can even integrate it relatively quickly as a template into a new project. The only drawback: I haven't found a way to transfer the remote links yet, as these are project-specific. I use around 250 VST (Z3TA) envelopes, which can be deleted after a remote assignment. The assignment actually remains even when the envelope is deleted! (Important for PC performance)

I tinkered with it for a long time until I found a way to get it working. I'll try to create a detailed YouTube clip about the setup with the Z3TA+2 in Sonar this weekend. It won't be easy...

Sonar's "Remote Control" has the great advantage of being able to distinguish between MIDI channels when routing the signals via a virtual MIDI cable (e.g., loopMIDI) and a MIDI output, compared to MIDI Learn. When used directly, it can't distinguish between MIDI channels and sends MIDI signals even if echo isn't enabled and all tracks are muted. (?) My setup creates a very high distribution option for MIDI CCs (16x120 and then on different MIDI ports), which should be sufficient to trigger everything without overlap. Without loopMIDI (Erichson) and Blue Cats

https://discuss.cakewalk.com/topic/89839-vst-parameter-envelope-in-clip-editor/#comment-612148

 

 

... and this is how the MIDI signal flows... (I guess because I'm just a terrible amateur and I'm just trying my hand) 😇

1.) It starts from the Touch Portal MIDI controller in Sonar DAW and hits BC-Remote CTRL MIDIin (virtual MIDI controller plugin)

2.) BC-Remote CTRL transforms the incoming MIDI CC and its channel into a different state
      and sends (BC-Re MIDIout) the signal (back) via "loopMIDI" (virtual MIDI cable) to a "fake" MIDIout port.

3.) The signal is then routed from the MIDIout port back into Sonar and recognized by Sonar "Remote Control" as a MIDI hardware signal,          which then triggers a VST envelope in the Sonar Clip Editor of the selected plugin.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:15 AM by Astraios

[azslow3]

It seems like you try to implement ACT functionality without using ACT 

I think you are working in direction of one 3d party solution in another DAW. I will not risk to publish the link, but you can easily find what I mean by searching for helgoboss. He has several creatures, the one in question has "Learn" word in the name.

I mean that is not the approach Cakewalk had in mind when ACT was developed, but using ACT for the purpose is simpler then using a chain of "MIDI tricks" you have applied.