Buzzing in monitors, but it is from the PC!

[hockeyjx]

So, this feels like a @Jim Roseberry question, but any suggestions are welcome.

I have an AXE/IO and Yamaha HS8 monitors. I am getting a buzz that sounds like jumbled alien communication on my pc(latest version of Sonar). Now, I have a spare machine to test(not nearly as robust, but good to test the theory), and what do you know ...the sample project in the latest version of Sonar the monitors are SILENT. 

So, not the project. It is a minimal install of Win11 install with just the AXE I/O driver and Sonar(all unnecessary devices disabled of course) . Same power outlet. Same cables.

What I'm going to try: a new drive with nothing on it (not going to cause an issue) and try. I don't think that's it at all, but why the hell not.

THEN, what next if I still get that buzz?

What are the lower-impact things I can try, that I should try first? (I'm thinking fans to start) I don't want to pull the power supply until last as I'd have to buy a new one. I've moved to all of the usb slots to no avail. Nothing else is really plugged in. Replaced monitors not long ago, but still, no issue on the new machine.

Any suggestions?


 

[Amberwolf]

It wouldn't (shouldn't, can't think of how) be software.  

This kind of thing is usually a ground loop, and most often caused by an ac adapter for something attached to the laptop, the sound device, the mixer, or something else in the audio path.

 

Since you have a second computer, what is different between the two, in how they are connected to power from the wall?  Including which outlets things are plugged into?

[hockeyjx]

8 hours ago, Amberwolf said:

Since you have a second computer, what is different between the two, in how they are connected to power from the wall?  Including which outlets things are plugged into?

The other one is a NUC computer. Just a small nothing burger of a machine. Not made for audio, I was just testing. Same drivers/settings on the AXE I/O

Same physical outlet. Power cables - I've tried a few. Had some new heavy duty ones that had more shielding, and even used noise suppressor cable clips to no avail. That's why I am thinking the power supply or a fan primarily - neither of which I can do without getting the machine open ...but most likely what it is in my head.

What is super strange is that it doesn't really make as much noise until AFTER I open a project, which seems weird. Now, I used the one test project in Sonar, so no issue with the settings on the project with vsts and such. Maybe the fans are dynamic and spin more after CPU load increases? I don't know. Just hoping it is NOT the board/cpu/ram - that WOULD SUCK.

[Amberwolf]

None of those things should cause any kind of noise in your monitors.  That has to get there in the audio signal path, or the ground to the power or signal path.  

 

Ok, well, there's one more path:  RF (radio).  If you have wifi or bluetooth devices on the problem PC that are not on the other, *and* the monitors or something else in the signal path to the monitors is vulnerable to RF that can then get amplified by preamps, etc., to become noise in the audio signal, that can also cause it.   This would also be more likely to sound like "data" or "modem" noise. 

 

Some thoughts from experience, and electrical principles and theory:

 

A fan can make audible noise, but unless it's a brushed motor (not used in any computer or rack fans I've ever seen, even ancient ones from the 1960s), it won't make electrical or RF noise that would end up in your signal path like this.   Most have tiny brushless motor controller chips in them, that do generate some RF noise, but it is tiny and would require some other system problem to allow this to be an issue.  The noise would be a constant tone or buzz directly related to the RPM of the fan, so if touching a fan lightly to slow it down doesnt' change the tone of the noise, it's not coming from a fan. 

 

A PSU could fail to filter such noise from a power bus, but the computer would probably be unstable if the PSU were unable to filter noise to this degree; it would likely also require the motherboard filter caps to be bad as well, as they provide additional filtering on the power buses.   PSU noise not on the power bus couldn't make it into the computer directly, so it would be RF noise, and be radiated the same regardless of what the comptuer was doing as long as it was powered on at all, so even if it wasn't connected to your monitors it would still make the noise and the monitors would still pick it up. It would also probably be a steady noise, not "data' sounding. 

 

Problems with data busses radiating RF can make the kind of noise  you hear, but wouldn't be an issue unless the audio device is picking that up and pasing it on--all computers make a fair bit of this kind of RF, most of them shield it eitehr with the main casing having a metal lining or being all metal, or thru good grounding planes, etc.   

 

But good audio devices are shielded against it anyway...however, they may depend on a good ground for the audio cables and power to do that. 

 

 

Power cables for AC lines aren't the issue, unless they have grounding on one system and the other does not, so that either the ground is feeding the noise into the signal path or preventing it from getting there.  If you've tried different AC power cables with no change, and swapped the cables between the problem system and the other one, with no change, then it's not those. 

 

AC-DC wallwarts that have no ground pin (very common) can generate RF that doesn't get grounded even if there is shielding, and can be re-radiated thru their output wires or the device they power.   If their shield/negative connects thru the device they power and then a chain of connections to the primary system groudn that does get to the wall outlet ground, then it would *probably* be less radiated, or even prevented.

 

Regarding the noise *after* opening a project, it is probably the audio driver not being opened and sending signal to the monitors until the project accesses the input or output of the audio device.   

 

Unlikely causes:  Back in the 90s, before the OSes did IRQ management, I had a machine with a NIC that had to have a specific IRQ assigned in the BIOS for the PCI bus.  If it wasn't on that one, it would cause wierd data noises in the SBLive audio in or out, even if the NIC wasn't plugged into a network cable.  But this type of problem hasn't happened to me since, oh, at least WinXP, maybe Win2000.   

 

I had some other thoughts but JellyBeanThePerfectlyNormalSchmoo needed attentionals and I forgot what they were by the time I got back to the computer.... 🐶

 

 

 

[hockeyjx]

@Amberwolf no onboard bluetooth/wifi. I use a usb wifi dongle which is unplugged except when I update. Onboard sound is disabled in device manager, with the only option being the AXE/IO. NUC had onboard wifi/bluetooth, which was disabled and had no noise. I had a thought about it being a driver, that's why I figured I might try a new install just for the heck of it. There really isn't much difference between the two machines in terms of swappable pieces.

New speaker cables. New and old both do it, and I didn't go cheap on them.

Edited Wednesday at 09:30 PM by hockeyjx

[oneofmany]

The other one is a NUC computer. 

I have three NUCs, and all use an AC adapter, with the AC cord being two pin.

[Amberwolf]

42 minutes ago, oneofmany said:

I have three NUCs, and all use an AC adapter, with the AC cord being two pin.

Then if hockeyjx's NUC is the same, it means the computer that doesnt' have the noise issue also doesn't have a ground pin for it's power supply, so it wouldn't be creating any ground loops via the wall AC system.

If the other system is a regualr desktop or tower, using a regular 3-prong cord, then it does ahve a ground pin for it's power supply, and so it could create ground loops via the wall AC system. 

 

So, assuming that the problem system is "new" and has never been used for audio before, so that hte problem and machine are both coincident, that would be the first place I'd check, doing the usual things to eliminate ground loops.

[oneofmany]

Agree. From my former business, I certainly have seen power supplies partially failing that do make noise through speakers as well. 

Have also seen once where speakers that were plugged into the opposite leg in the breaker box from the PC do the same. 

[Jim Roseberry]

Sound like a ground issue.

 

In over 30 years building/supporting DAWs professionally, ground related noise has *never* been due to the PC itself.

It's either been a poor quality USB cable...  or an electrical ground-loop.

 

To minimize the odds of ground issues, power the studio from a single outlet.

Use balanced cables when possible.

If you're using multiple outlets... and unbalanced cables, your odds of ground related noise goes up considerably.

 

Another potential source of noise (sounds like "digital hash") can be a poor quality USB cable.

Years back, I had a Yamaha Motif ES7.

One day, I noticed a substantial amount of noise coming thru my studio monitors.

Traced the issue to the Motif ES7.  (Disconnected the USB cable... and the noise was gone. ) 

Replaced the USB cable... and the problem was resolved.

 

I'd start with just the computer and audio interface: 

• Only keyboard, mouse, and video connected to the computer.
• Nothing at all connected to the audio interface (no cables other than its power cable).

Connect a pair of headphones to the audio interface... and slowly/carefully turn up the headphone volume.

 You should no longer hear noise (other than the normal noise-floor of the audio interface) .

That tells you it's not the PC or the audio interface.

Once this has been established, connect one piece of gear at a time.

When the noise returns, you'll know the source.

Balanced cables (if supported) might solve the issue.  Replacing a USB cable might solve the issue.

If you need to lift the ground of a connected device (to eliminate a ground-loop), a direct box is a safe way to do this.

 

This process can be tedious, but you'll definitely find the culprit.

It's also enlightening to get a handle on the noise-floor of each piece of connected gear.

Edited yesterday at 01:32 AM by Jim Roseberry

[Starship Krupa]

4 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Replacing a USB cable might solve the issue.

This was the thought that came to my mind. By my count you mention it 3 times. That is appropriate and I hope it got their attention.

A USB cable can pick up noise and it can also carry it to the the interface and/or radiate it to the audio cables. I believe that these days USB cables are supposed to be shielded, but there are no guarantees with that, and a shield can become disconnected.

If changing the USB cable doesn't help or make it worse, if it's possible to run an extension cord, you might try plugging your new system into a different outlet as a test.

Also, as always, it's best to simplify things as much as possible. Disconnect any USB devices that aren't absolutely necessary to the operation of your system.

If any of this helps, you can begin to set things back to the way they were piece by piece and find the culprit.

BTW, you say that you can't hear the noise until you open a project. How about with other DAW's? Tracktion Waveform is free, REAPER has a generous free trial period. If you don't have them get one or both and see how they do.

I recommend REAPER. I don't use it except for testing. "It works fine in REAPER" is an oft heard statement on DAW support forums.

[hockeyjx]

19 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

BTW, you say that you can't hear the noise until you open a project. How about with other DAW's? Tracktion Waveform is free, REAPER has a generous free trial period. If you don't have them get one or both and see how they do.

I don't have another DAW. Not averse to the idea. 

Going to be a weekend of testing, and not recording. 🤮

[Starship Krupa]

6 minutes ago, hockeyjx said:

Going to be a weekend of testing, and not recording. 🤮

I suspect it won't be all weekend. You/we got this.

And even if it is, weekend of learning, too.

I'm rooting for a sketchy USB cable. They even have them with ferrite beads to get rid of noise.

Also, not the worst idea to get a passing familiarity with a second DAW. You never know what will happen.

Edited 17 hours ago by Starship Krupa

[hockeyjx]

Just now, Starship Krupa said:

I'm rooting for a sketchy USB cable. They even have them with ferrite beads to get rid of noise.

Already have the replacement ...and 4 others to try!

 

[Amberwolf]

Just for grins, if your non-noisy system has a two prong (at the wall end) cord, like this (note that I used USA plugs here, if you're not in the USA yours will probably look different)

and your noisy system has a three prong cord (at the wall end), like this

 

to the ac outlet on the wall, like this

do you have a spare ac cord for the noisy system that you can break the round ground prong off of just to test how it works that way?

Or if you  have one of these laying around, u se it between that cord and the wall:

[Kevin Walsh]

My money is on the USB cable. They go bad all the time for no reason whatsoever. I'll be happily working along, and all of a sudden they start picking up my cell phone's chatter.

[Amberwolf]

Could be, but if the same cable is used on the noisy and non noisy system tests, it's much less likely (it would mean that something esle is still different between thsoe two that allows it to cause the problem in one vs the other)

 

6 hours ago, Kevin Walsh said:

My money is on the USB cable. They go bad all the time for no reason whatsoever. I'll be happily working along, and all of a sudden they start picking up my cell phone's chatter.