Mauro Gaspa Posted April 5 Author Share Posted April 5 @Bass Guitar Thanks Quote Instead of using a Cell phone which makes the video blurry use this--it's free and used by millions of people around the world. OBS studio. https://obsproject.com/download Having two monitors makes it easy to capture Sonar on the main screen. Put OBS studio on the second monitor. It even allows you to capture the audio. I already know OBS and it does much more, I have already used it to make a video direction with multiple cameras connected, in fact I will do the screen capture with it.😉 Quote Instead of using a Cell phone which makes the video blurry use this--it's free and used by millions of people around the world. OBS studio. As for the shooting with the phone it was to show that even playing on an external keyboard the audio comes out but the program crashes graphically. 😉 Quote And don't worry about using italian language. It's pretty easy to transcribe audio these days. I already know that Skype, Teams and other video call software offer real-time translation but it is still not very accurate. Quote It's not hard to learn how to use it. If you need help send me a PM. I appreciate and thank you for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauro Gaspa Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 Good morning @Ben Staton I created, very quickly, two new test projects to demonstrate the block. In the first project there are only three midi tracks with three different instrument plugins. In the second project there are three audio tracks without any plugins and in addition a midi track with a Keyscape plugin where a Rhodes piano loaded from the presets plays. In both the first and second videos you can see where and how the block occurs, about three minutes in. Sometimes this problem can occur immediately, other times after several minutes I have also seen. The link, where to see the two files of the video and audio recording of the screen, is always the same but I am posting it again: https://1drv.ms/f/c/05665151b61353c4/EsRTE7ZRUWYggAW3lQUAAAABi-TsVVMBy1ssf_uBBOLG1w?e=gfTOac Thanks Mauro 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWillyDS12 Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 @Mauro Gaspa So I have had this exact same type of "Crash" with Cakewalk by Bandlab... GUI locks up/ freeze up but the song will continue to play till the end... Only way to get out of it is to kill Cakewalk with task manager... I watched both of the last two videos that you up loaded and it looks like the exact same problem I have had on Windows 11 with my Nvidia video card... I have a NviDia GeForce GT 710 graphics card... The NviDia system drivers are well known for having problems with very high DPC latency... Most likely your Nvidia card uses the same kernel driver file nviddmkm.sys and this is very likely the cause of your problem with Cakewalk locking up... I have seen DPC latencies as high as 1500 ms on my Windows 11 system using the default power management profiles from the NviDia driver... On my system I use Firewire for my Yamaha Motif XF6 and I have to use the legacy 1394 system driver for the Firewire card that I have... The legacy drive is very hardware interrupt intensive and if I'm using in on a song project it has the highest number of interrupts of any system driver during playback of a song... With any of the Windows 11 default power schemes the Windows thread schedulers assigns both my Firewire driver and NviDia graphics card driver to the same CPU core... Because it does, as soon as the NviDia driver has a very long DPC system interrupt it locks up the Cakewalk GUI but the song will continue to play till the end... For me this only happens when I'm using my Motif XF6 via Firewire so I had to "tune" my system accordingly... To find out if you may be having some hardware drive conflict problems download and install LatencyMon and run it for a while and see if your are getting unusually high DPC Latency from your Nvidia RTX4060 graphics card... Let LatencyMon run while your are running Cakewalk... Anything above about 800us is probably too high if your graphics card and your audio interface are sharing the same CPU core for interrupts... If you are getting DPC spikes up in the 10's of milliseconds from you NviDia card this is most likely what is locking up the Cakewalk GUI... By doing a lot of System tweaks I was able to get my NviDia DCP latency to below 400us and I no longer have the issues with my Firewire card and the two drivers locking up Cakewalk... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauro Gaspa Posted April 8 Author Share Posted April 8 Hi @SirWillyDS12 Thanks for your suggestion. I immediately downloaded the software you told me about and I tried it with the same song loaded in Cakewalk and LatencyMon. I'll post the screenshot of Latency Mon taken at the time of the block. Do you think there could be incorrect values? It would seem, if I read correctly, that there is no value above 800us or 1500us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWillyDS12 Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 Hello @Mauro Gaspa So none of these value are extremely out of hand but one thing to note is that the highest DPC routine recorded is from the DirectX Graphics Kernel which works hand in hand with your graphics card... So this was with your project playing, correct? The thing that stands out to me from this LatencyMon graph is the fairly high number of hard page faults... Something on your system seems to be looking for chunks of memory to load from disk into upper memory quite often... This can surely be a cause of program crashes if the page fault is not cleared in sufficient time... In both of your videos, Cakewalk locked up when the play cursor was on the right hand side of the monitor just before it would switch to the next screen... Not quite right at the point but never the less on that side of the screen... Perhaps around that point is a hard page fault that is not dealt with timely between Sonar and your graphics card? So if you could run LatencyMon with Sonar until it locks up and then post screen shots of the other pages in LatencyMon, "Stats, Processes, Drivers, and CPUs as well as Main" we can see more of what is going on behind the scenes on your system that Sonar doesn't like... Some other things to try as well... Does Sonar crash if you are on the Console View or does it play all they way thru? If you zoom your tracks all the way out in Track View so the track screen never refreshes during playback does Sonar crash? A few things to check in the NviDia Control Panel for your graphics card... Under 3D Settings -> Manage 3D setting -> Low Latency Mode... You may want to set this to Ultra if not already on Ultra... Assuming your setting are the same as mine since your graphics card is a different model... And under 3D Settings -> Manage 3D setting -> Power management mode... Set to Prefer maximum performance... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Guitar Posted Friday at 03:00 PM Share Posted Friday at 03:00 PM That screenshot of Latency Monitor looks pretty good to me. Latency monitor always seems to point at my graphic drivers no matter which computer I've run it on. I actually just ran it yesterday for the first time in a while and I was surprised to see red. It pointed at a Realtek audio driver. Of course it's disabled but I thought I had un installed it too? Turns out Windows will re install it again. SO I uninstalled it again. But that didn't get rid of the red? ANd now is showed once again that it was my graphic card ( NVIDA ge Force RTX 3060 ) I can't find the control panel anywhere?? So I will be downloading and re installing the driver after I post this. Then I found that Windows update had also turned on the Wi Fi. That was the issue. I had to go look at a bunch of tweaks I had made and re set them. Same old story with using a computer for audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauro Gaspa Posted Saturday at 11:29 AM Author Share Posted Saturday at 11:29 AM Hi @SirWillyDS12 I updated the graphics driver once again and changed those settings you told me. The crash still happens. I made a new video with LatencyMon open in front of the Sonar project, this time the crash happened after 10 minutes and 20 seconds. Quote A few things to check in the NviDia Control Panel for your graphics card... Under 3D Settings -> Manage 3D setting -> Low Latency Mode... You may want to set this to Ultra if not already on Ultra... Assuming your setting are the same as mine since your graphics card is a different model... And under 3D Settings -> Manage 3D setting -> Power management mode... Set to Prefer maximum performance... I changed the settings as you suggested for low latency and power management mode. I originally had low latency mode set to "disable" and power management mode set to "Normal". Quote So this was with your project playing, correct? Yes, This is the project from the last time in the video. No matter what project I run, Sonar still freezes after a while. Even with a new project and just any plugin instruments loaded, without even pressing play, playing on a master keyboard the audio always works but graphically it freezes from one moment to the next. The graphical interface of everything freezes, including the open plugin. Quote n both of your videos, Cakewalk locked up when the play cursor was on the right hand side of the monitor just before it would switch to the next screen... Not quite right at the point but never the less on that side of the screen... Perhaps around that point is a hard page fault that is not dealt with timely between Sonar and your graphics card? So what can I do? If you look at the video, which I made this time, the block occurs after the page change and on the left side. In my opinion, however, it is not a problem related to the playback progress. This graphical crash, as I told you before, happens to me even if I do not start playing the song. Quote So if you could run LatencyMon with Sonar until it locks up and then post screen shots of the other pages in LatencyMon, "Stats, Processes, Drivers, and CPUs as well as Main" we can see more of what is going on behind the scenes on your system that Sonar doesn't like... In the video at the moment of the block I go to press on the other tabs for further details. Quote Some other things to try as well... Does Sonar crash if you are on the Console View or does it play all they way thru? If you zoom your tracks all the way out in Track View so the track screen never refreshes during playback does Sonar crash? I will try this and post it in the next video. I hope @Ben Staton has also come up with other ideas as to what could be causing all this. Link: https://1drv.ms/f/c/05665151b61353c4/EsRTE7ZRUWYggAW3lQUAAAABi-TsVVMBy1ssf_uBBOLG1w?e=gfTOac Thanks 😩 Mauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xoo Posted Saturday at 12:11 PM Share Posted Saturday at 12:11 PM It's not Scroll Lock key getting triggered is it (dodgy connection, cat on keyboard...)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauro Gaspa Posted Saturday at 01:04 PM Author Share Posted Saturday at 01:04 PM No, it's not the scroll lock button. Pressing it doesn't lock Sonar. Quote Cat on keyboard... 😄 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWillyDS12 Posted Sunday at 12:26 AM Share Posted Sunday at 12:26 AM So @Mauro Gaspa I really do believe that what is locking up the Sonar GUI on you is hardware system interrupts from your graphics card that are not executed in time for Sonar... In your video at 10:22 when Sonar locked up LatencyMon also stopped responding for a brief period of time, there was also an interrupt at that very instance that was a bit longer... So if you go to 11:05 on your video, this is when you brought up the CPUs page of LatencyMon... On that page you will notice that Windows schedules almost all ISR and DPC interrupts, probably over 90%, on the very first core of your CPU, CPU0 and CPU1... This is probably the bottle neck that is locking up Sonar, it only takes one late interrupt... You will also notice that CPU2 thru CPU11 are not processing any hardware interrupts... This is a result of the Windows Thread Scheduler and the default Power Management Schemes on Windows 11... I had the exact same problem on my Windows 11 system... Windows 10 was a little better than Windows 11 at distributing interrupts over different cores with the default power schemes... So what you can try next is to get your graphics card off of CPU0 and CPU1 and move it to one of the "Cores" that Windows is not using for interrupts... This will alleviate some of the bottle neck on CPU0 and CPU1 or core 1 and help to reduce overall system latency for all around better performance... You seems like you're pretty tech savvy so I think you can handle this... What you want to do is set the CPU Affinity for your Nvidia graphics card to one of the cores Windows is not using which will be two Logical CPUs... I would use CPU8 and CPU9 as they appear to have the lowest execution time from your video... You will need to download the Microsoft Interrupt Affinity Tool... There is no "install" you just run it... If you do, make sure you use the correct tool, I think there are three in that download... You want intPolicy_x64.exe When you run the tool it will bring up a list of all the hardware on your system which could be quite long... You want to find NVIDIA GeForce RXT 4060... Your graphics card... When you click on it it may bring up an "error" dialog box, Registry value for the affinity mask has unexpected type... Just click OK... After you click on your graphics card click on Set Mask... It will bring up the Processor Affinity Policy... I have mine set to CPU 20 and CPU21, they were the least used by the Windows Thread Scheduler on my system... I've had the Affinity for my NVIDIA GeForce set for months now with no problems at all... Like I said in my first post I had to do this to fix the same problem you're having... I also did some other stuff to lower system latency as well but I think you need to try this first... Use both Logical CPUs on the same Core... As I said above, CPU8 and CPU9 on your system have the lowest execution time right now... After you set the CPUs click OK... When you do it will ask if you want to Restart Device?... Click OK... As this is your video card your screen will go black for a few seconds until it restarts... If you get the Error box you'll probably get it a few more times during the process... I think I get it three times in total... If you do this Windows will move all interrupts for your graphics card to those CPUs, this includes the DirectX Graphics Kernel... This will free up interrupt cycle time on CPU0 and CPU1 for all your other "Stuff"... More than likely the CPUs you move it too will only be processing interrupts for your graphics card and nothing else as they were not processing any before... This may fix your problem but if not there are some other "Tweaks" that I can lead you thru to help your overall system performance and reduce latency... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaps Posted Sunday at 01:20 AM Share Posted Sunday at 01:20 AM I have nothing to offer than a comment about your NVIDIA graphics card. For years NVIDIA users used GeForce Experience to keep their card's drivers up to date, and it was designed to optimize drivers for games. It is being phased out and replaced by the NVIDIA App, which gives the user the choice between GeForce Game Ready Drivers or GeForce Studio Drivers which "Provides the ultimate in functionality and stability for creative applications." There is also support for RTX cards. "NVIDIA RTX Drivers" "Additionally provides stability, performance, and certification for professional and creative applications." I don't know if it would have any affect on your problem but the NVIDIA App is the best way to keep your video card's drivers up to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Simon Fletcher Posted Sunday at 10:18 AM Share Posted Sunday at 10:18 AM Just wanted to highlight that I've also experienced the UI freeze issues and had raised this elsewhere. I've not seen this happen in a week or two though now fortunately. Can't say for definite what fixed it as I did a big tidy up of my machine, and have changed multiple things, but I think it's mostly likely to be that I reverted to the previous Nvidia gaming driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amberwolf Posted Sunday at 04:23 PM Share Posted Sunday at 04:23 PM FWIW, a couple decades back I used to do 3D modelling / animation with Lightwave3D, and had numerous wierd issues with Nvidia drivers, except for their WHQL versions, which are probably equivalent to the "studio" version they have today. Some of the "gaming" versions they had did a better job at realtime 3D rendering for previews and such, but they caused so many wierd problems (most of them not apparently related to graphics!) that I stopped using anything other than their WHQL, and once I had a working version I then never updated it afterwards, since working is working and therefore no reason to change it (because changing it then risked me not being able to work on things and instead waste more hours and hours troubleshooting and fixing things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauro Gaspa Posted Sunday at 04:25 PM Author Share Posted Sunday at 04:25 PM (edited) @SirWillyDS12 Thanks I immediately downloaded Microsoft Interrupt Affinity, started the software in administrator mode and selected, as you suggested, CPU 8 and CPU 9 for the RTX 4060 graphics card. I played the song until it ended and restarted it and after about 30 seconds the freeze occurred again. I noticed that when the freeze is about to happen, just before, the Sonar CPU performance starts to make waves on the various cores as if it were looking for other available cores. Could this be a clue? @Ben Staton Do you have any other ideas? @Amberwolf Hi, thanks. The drivers I downloaded and used are Nvidia WHQL. The problem, if it really was the Nvidia driver, how can I find the right version as you say that makes me work among the many versions available? Edited Sunday at 04:35 PM by Mauro Gaspa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amberwolf Posted Sunday at 04:50 PM Share Posted Sunday at 04:50 PM 22 minutes ago, Mauro Gaspa said: @Amberwolf Hi, thanks. The drivers I downloaded and used are Nvidia WHQL. The problem, if it really was the Nvidia driver, how can I find the right version as you say that makes me work among the many versions available? If it's the driver, then if there was ever a time when it did work without this issue, reverting to that version should correct the problem. (reverting is a lot easier these days than back in Win2k) If reverting isn't possible, you might have to manually uninstall the current driver and manually install older ones until the problem doesn't occur. Sometimes the problem can be a shared file that doesn't get replaced with an older version when reverting, and that is a PITA to figure out and fix. I have no idea what they're like these days, or if they even make video cards useful for this stuff now, but Matrox had the best most stable drivers for their cards back then, and I used one of those before I got the Nvidia (and would've kept using it if it had supported the stuff I needed in the realtime previews, it did a much better job...I still used it in the music machine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWillyDS12 Posted yesterday at 02:30 AM Share Posted yesterday at 02:30 AM (edited) You're welcome @Mauro Gaspa I was really hoping that that would work out for you... So you can just leave the affinity like that if it is not causing you any problems, it will help... If it is causing problems just go back and select Delete Mask... But before you do that I have a few other things for you... So this evening I "reverted" my custom power plan (Change Power Plan in Windows 11) on my PC to the default Windows 11 Balanced plan and fired up Cakewalk with my Yamaha Motif XF6... I loaded a song and hit play, at 2:10 it locked up the GUI but the audio continued to play just as it does for you... KERNEL32 the defaulting module, same as in your dump file... I did not change the Affinity for my NVIDIA card back, it was still set to CPU20 and CPU21... I had an interrupt to process of 1200us during the "LockUp"... So next I think you need to load a real Windows high performance power plan... I uploaded my two custom high performance power plans to your OneDrive and renamed them for your processor... 7700X High Performance.pow and 7700X Ultimate Performance.pow... With both of these power plans I can play the exact same song I played tonight on Cakewalk with absolutely no problems or GUI lockup... I spent months tweaking these plans until I was able to get my system latency to below 100us over time... Once in a while I'll get a spike from the NVIDIA Kernel but usually less that 300us with Cakewalk running and playing a song... Your system will probably behave slightly different... One thing is your CPU is faster than mine but I have double the cores... These plans disable CPU core parking completely and also incorporate Interrupt Steering to distribute IRS and DCP's across all your CPU cores... They also disable any sleeps states for USB devices... They decrease CPU performance load states to help "balance" CPU loads across cores... The 7700X Ultimate Performance plan will disable rotating desktop backgrounds and is a little more aggressive for Performance States and Interrupt Steering... So you need to download Windows power plan settings explorer utility and run it... It will give you complete control over your Windows Power Plans... This website Export and Import Power Plan in Windows 11 will tell you how to import the power plans that I uploaded to your OneDrive... The same site will tell you how to Create Custom Power Plan in Windows 11 ... After you Import the plans that I created they will show up in Windows power plan settings explorer utility and you will be able to see what changes I made, I started with the Windows High Performance Plan... They will also show up in the Control Panel so you can switch them from there with just a few clicks... So run LatencyMon with the default Windows power plans and the ones that I uploaded for you... You should see the difference in LatencyMon... So if this doesn't work for you, (I think it will...) you may need to revert back to the December release of Sonar... I noticed from re-reading your post that you said you didn't have the problem with that release... The Cakewalk Team should be able to get you the complete installer... Edited yesterday at 02:38 AM by SirWillyDS12 spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vere Posted yesterday at 02:47 AM Share Posted yesterday at 02:47 AM I was having this issue with videos would start playing and the audio was crackling. Then the video would freeze but the audio kept playing. I posted on the Vegas user forum and they said there was issues with the Nvidia driver from January. I rolled back to an earlier drive and it did not fix it. Nothing I did fixed it. i decided it was time for a clean install of Windows anyhow because of all the stupid stuff I'd been installing over the last year in my quest for a new Daw. I did that and my problem totally was gone. Oddly enough it seems Windows installed the very same driver automatically. Nvidia RTX 3060 Version 572.83. Go figure. But overall it was well worth the effort. Vegas is now rendering videos 2x faster. I installed the Daw I now use and then a X3 and Splat. Everything is very responsive. I didn't think I could return to SPlat but I love the fact I have my custom theme again. And no more crashing of my older projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWillyDS12 Posted yesterday at 02:59 AM Share Posted yesterday at 02:59 AM LatencyMon 5950X High Performance... LatencyMon 5950X Ultimate Performance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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