WHAT ABOUT loyalty discounts for existing customers who already own most of the items offered in a bundle?

[ToneDeF]

I am curious what other folks think about audio software vendors who seem to be dead set against offering an exclusive loyalty discount to existing customers who already own most of the items in a bundle offering.  It seems wrong for an existing customer to be expected to purchase the bundle offering at the same price as a brand-new customer (who would be getting every item in the bundle for the first time) and re-purchase the majority of items just to pick up the remaining items at a discount.

Am I simply spoiled by the software vendors (like Kilohearts, Cherry Audio, UJAM, Waves, et al.) who will offer a customized discount based on items already owned by the customer?

[Amberwolf]

It'd be nice if that would happen, but I am guessing that most of the bundles put out there are to entice *new* customers into the fold. 

Most discounts and sales (in any kind of company) are not created to keep existing customers--they already have some of their money...to get more of it, they may offer special upgrade pricing, etc., specifically to those customers, or in some cases they may not even care and actually prevent existing customers from using a discount code or purchasing an item on a sale.    

 

 

[Brian Walton]

You listed WAVES as a company that you are "spoiled by" in the way they treat customers?....I'm out.

[MusicMan]

I see this a lot as well.. new customers are so often treated better. When a company does that. I just stop buying from them.

There are a lot of great developers out there that don't do that, so I just start spending my money with them.

Even that Total Studio Max offer from IK I didn't bother with, as I own the majority of it.

If the upgrade for me was half that price due to owning almost all of it, I may have bitten. But the deals pass, new things turn up and often I'm glad that I didn't fall for that no loyalty trap and I get something new from a completely different company that often adds more variety than I would get by buying from the same companies that don't reward my loyalty. Often they re-use algorithms, so you don't get as fresh / new sounds.

UA, Softube.. These guys don't have any reasonable upgrade offers generally.. I'll never upgrade to Softube Volume for that reason.

Signature 2 from UA I won't even consider. The thing is, by the time they work it out (if they work it out), I've been buying more stuff and even if they offered it for a reasonable price, I might not need / want it any more. That's happened a lot too. Some companies have held on to prices that were too high and while I was waiting, I found alternatives that were often better and then when they've dropped the prices, I haven't even bothered to buy, so they've totally lost a sale altogether. Greedy developers, or no loyalty developers often lose a lot of sales.

[ToneDeF]

1 hour ago, Brian Walton said:

You listed WAVES as a company that you are "spoiled by" in the way they treat customers?....I'm out.

What I am specifically referring to is the reduced price I received when I upgraded to one of Wave's larger bundles (e.g. Horizon).  I was able to customize a discounted upgrade price based on the existing eligible Waves plugins I already owned.  I got a slightly better discount (and a free bonus) by letting AudioDeluxe process the upgrade.

Edited Thursday at 05:26 AM by ToneDeF

[Mr No Name]

you have enough plugins.

[Pragi]

4 hours ago, ToneDeF said:

I am curious what other folks think about audio software vendors who seem to be dead set against offering an exclusive loyalty discount to existing customers who already own most of the items in a bundle offering.  It seems wrong for an existing customer to be expected to purchase the bundle offering at the same price as a brand-new customer (who would be getting every item in the bundle for the first time) and re-purchase the majority of items just to pick up the remaining items at a discount.

Am I simply spoiled by the software vendors (like Kilohearts, Cherry Audio, UJAM, Waves, et al.) who will offer a customized discount based on items already owned by the customer?

This is of course a point that applies to many areas;.

in many industries it is assumed that the so-called existing customers will not run away if the contributions and  prizes  are increased.

For example, regularly with electricity providers, car insurance companies and software manufacturers

The only thing that really helps is to change the provider regularly It's just a shame that it's not possible to easily change plugin copies etc., which is why developers like Waves are rightly so unpopular.

Edited Thursday at 07:07 AM by Pragi

[MusicMan]

3 hours ago, ToneDeF said:

What I am specifically referring to is the reduced price I received when I upgraded to one of Wave's larger bundles (e.g. Horizon).  I was able to customize a discounted upgrade price based on the existing eligible Waves plugins I already owned.  I got a slightly better discount (and a free bonus) by letting AudioDeluxe process the upgrade.

Waves looks after you by offering cheap discounts on the bundles until you upgrade to the largest ones and then you're locked in to paying the max WUP I believe, as you can't WUP the individual plugins, only the total bundle. Someone can probably jump in and correct me if that's not right.

So if that's the case, they're probably still better than IK, UA, Softube, etc. in that regard, but leave lot to be improved.. that and they gave everyone with perpetual licenses the middle finger by trying to go subscription only, which meant that users who didn't pay an ongoing fee would never be able to WUP again..

Glad that play crashed and burned 🤣

[Pragi]

Basically, the Waves payment model with an annual WUP is significantly more expensive than IK, PA etc. because Waves wants to collect every year.

Of course, as many people do, you can only pay WUP if absolutely necessary, but the WUP fees are often the same or even higher than the price of the plugin.

With other developers, many updates are free and only real version upgrades are chargeable.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, MusicMan said:

Waves looks after you by offering cheap discounts on the bundles until you upgrade to the largest ones and then you're locked in to paying the max WUP I believe, as you can't WUP the individual plugins, only the total bundle. Someone can probably jump in and correct me if that's not right.

So if that's the case, they're probably still better than IK, UA, Softube, etc. in that regard, but leave lot to be improved.. that and they gave everyone with perpetual licenses the middle finger by trying to go subscription only, which meant that users who didn't pay an ongoing fee would never be able to WUP again..

Glad that play crashed and burned 🤣

By these forums standard, I own a fairly limited number of Waves plug-ins, and I do not often upgrade my DAW, so I'd never actually WUP'd anything until very recently. I seem to have been unscathed by the drama if not entirely ignorant of it. By the time I had moved to a new computer and to an OS that no longer allowed me to use my Waves plugins, they had changed their mind about the whole thing. I am thankful to those users who picked up the torches and decided to let Waves know that this wasn't going to work.

Currently at least, Waves allow to renew the WUP on individual plugins. The first thing I WUP'd was Element - which cost me $9 and brought my version up to date from 1 to 2. Not a bad deal after over 10 years. And I don't see myself needing to pay again for some time. I also have some plugins that I just don't care to renew at this time, like the CLA compressors, GTR3 and such. 

I recently purchased their Abbey Road Chambers and Plates for $50 and got to pick two free plugins as a bonus. I don't see myself having to WUP these any time soon, so, to me, that's worth it. 

But I can see how someone who owns and uses a boatload of their plugins and upgrades frequently may have a drastically different point of view.

Edited Thursday at 10:59 AM by Rain

[MusicMan]

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

By these forums standard, I own a fairly limited number of Waves plug-ins, and I do not often upgrade my DAW, so I'd never actually WUP'd anything until very recently. I seem to have been unscathed by the drama if not entirely ignorant of it. By the time I had moved to a new computer and to an OS that no longer allowed me to use my Waves plugins, they had changed their mind about the whole thing. I am thankful to those users who picked up the torches and decided to let Waves know that this wasn't going to work.

Currently at least, Waves allow to renew the WUP on individual plugins. The first thing I WUP'd was Element - which cost me $9 and brought my version up to date from 1 to 2. Not a bad deal after over 10 years. And I don't see myself needing to pay again for some time. I also have some plugins that I just don't care to renew at this time, like the CLA compressors, GTR3 and such. 

I recently purchased their Abbey Road Chambers and Plates for $50 and got to pick two free plugins as a bonus. I don't see myself having to WUP these any time soon, so, to me, that's worth it. 

But I can see how someone who owns and uses a boatload of their plugins and upgrades frequently may have a drastically different point of view.

Yeah there's definitely some people it hits harder than others. Mac users frequently complain as OS upgrades more commonly break their Waves plugins, so they need to pay to get the updates to even get them working again. I'm on PC, so like you, I never have needed to pay WUP. But they're also a bit shitty in that they only grant two seats if you have active WUP. So if you have a studio computer and a laptop, without juggling licenses, or USBs, you're sweet out of luck. Even McDSP has passed them by, with allowing more than one activation now and that's saying something! Apart from the subscription fiasco though, Waves just don't care what customers say. That's part of the reason they were ignorant enough to even try to move the goalposts to subscription only.

For the most part I've replaced all my Waves plugins with alternatives that don't require WUP, still get updates and allow more than one activation and there's no ongoing costs. But I do still like a few of the Waves plugins.

And yeah individuals are always possible to WUP, but once people upgrade using the Waves enticing upgrade offers and hit Mercury, there's no real upgrades, so I'm pretty sure to use any of them with active WUP, even if they only want a few is either pay the WUP cap price of $240 or buy the plugins again. That's their ploy.. is basically people go, oh it's cheaper to upgrade to the next bundle than paying WUP as it renews WUP and they get some new plugins, but then they get to a stage, where WUP is $240 every time from then on (unless discounted / reseller / etc. but it's still bad) 

[kitekrazy1]

 People like to bash IK to the point they even create reasons.  All you have to do is look at KVR.   Those jam points are quite valuable.  I've used them on IK hardware. I was able to get their small monitors, Axe,  Tone X One at a nice price directly from them.   

 Some forums have become nasty or more regulated to drive reps like Peter away.  He was so valuable to any forum.

 I always seem to have the Max bundle and rarely use any of it.  TRacks and Modo are highly underrated.

So I guess I'm a fanboy much like an NFL fan who only watches the team and not the rest of the league.

Usually the better display of loyalty are often DAW upgrades. Two have went the other direction.

NI hasn't punished people yet for skipping a Komplete.  I'm sure that's on the stuffed shirts table to ruin.

Izotope has become confusing to where I ignore most of the time.

I never understood why people get upset over deals where a possible new user gets as a loyal user.  Usually this happens with sample libraries.  They why people dislike 8dio.  Never mind that that there are more developers and quality ones.

 

[Pragi]

57 minutes ago, kitekrazy1 said:

 People like to bash IK to the point they even create reasons.  All you have to do is look at KVR.   Those jam points are quite valuable.  I've used them on IK hardware. I was able to get their small monitors, Axe,  Tone X One at a nice price directly from them.   

 Some forums have become nasty or more regulated to drive reps like Peter away.  He was so valuable to any forum.

 I always seem to have the Max bundle and rarely use any of it.  TRacks and Modo are highly underrated.

So I guess I'm a fanboy much like an NFL fan who only watches the team and not the rest of the league.

Usually the better display of loyalty are often DAW upgrades. Two have went the other direction.

NI hasn't punished people yet for skipping a Komplete.  I'm sure that's on the stuffed shirts table to ruin.

Izotope has become confusing to where I ignore most of the time.

I never understood why people get upset over deals where a possible new user gets as a loyal user.  Usually this happens with sample libraries.  They why people dislike 8dio.  Never mind that that there are more developers and quality ones.

 

I completely agree with you.

IK Multimedia treats its customers fairly, especially when you look at the prices for Tonex and Sample Tank, for example.

The quality of the Tonex sounds is undisputed and even embarrasses competitors such as Kemper, Line 6 and others.

The software updates are regularly and  free and the support is very friendly and helpful, see IK Peter here in the forum or the group buys, special offers, etc.

Does Peter still appear here in the forum every now and then?

The sometimes complicated registration procedure and installation as well as the somewhat confusing design of the Tonex software, for example, can also be ignored when considering the prices, but remain a point of criticism in my opinion.

[User 905133]

1 hour ago, kitekrazy1 said:

 People like to bash IK to the point they even create reasons. 

For the record, I have posted about legitimate issues I have had with IK.  I have also posted praise for things I thought were good.  I don't have the time to research and summarize all the issues I have addressed in the past, but to say there aren't issues (or there haven't been issues) and to accuse people of making up or to imply people of making up reasons is not fair to those of us who have posted honest, truthful observations and opinions.

"People like to bash IK . . . ." is a gross generalization that gives people without their own experiences with IK a false sense that criticism of IK is unjustified.

Before I had my own experiences with IK, I saw many positive comments in the forum about IK which led me to overlook what I later learned were negatives.  I learned the hard way and wish there had been more comments pointing to the negatives so that I had more of a balanced perspective.

If there are statements in this thread that you are responding to (where you think forum members are "bashing" IK (or making what you feel are unjustified criticisms), please be specific and discuss the issues themselves instead of making generalizations like "People like to bash . . . ."  

[dubdisciple]

18 hours ago, ToneDeF said:

I am curious what other folks think about audio software vendors who seem to be dead set against offering an exclusive loyalty discount to existing customers who already own most of the items in a bundle offering.  It seems wrong for an existing customer to be expected to purchase the bundle offering at the same price as a brand-new customer (who would be getting every item in the bundle for the first time) and re-purchase the majority of items just to pick up the remaining items at a discount.

Am I simply spoiled by the software vendors (like Kilohearts, Cherry Audio, UJAM, Waves, et al.) who will offer a customized discount based on items already owned by the customer?

Every company is different. Reach out to customer service.  I have had reps look at what I owned and received free upgrades to bundles. 

[ToneDeF]

4 hours ago, dubdisciple said:

Every company is different. Reach out to customer service.  I have had reps look at what I owned and received free upgrades to bundles. 

I personally contacted the vendor (through customer support) and presented the case for a loyalty discount. Over a number of back and forths, I was regularly thanked and appreciated for my interest, but they would not budge on offering me any form of compensation for my existing purchases. While I appreciate the vendor's appreciation of my interest, I would much rather prefer a loyalty or courtesy discount on the all-in-one bundle.

I don't want to bash the company, as it has done right by me a number of times in the past (e.g. compensated me for change in upgrade policy; compensated me after a better deal was offered shortly after I pulled the trigger on the deal that was current at the time; rewarded me for notifying them about inconsistencies and mistakes on the website). Perhaps the particular employee handling my most recent inquiry is a proud stickler ("sorry... the price is the price").  🤷‍♂️

Update: I just heard back from that employee who is handling my query and was told that my concerns would be relayed to the team for consideration.  I guess I can wait a bit more to see if anything productive comes of it.

[kitekrazy1]

18 hours ago, User 905133 said:

For the record, I have posted about legitimate issues I have had with IK.  I have also posted praise for things I thought were good.  I don't have the time to research and summarize all the issues I have addressed in the past, but to say there aren't issues (or there haven't been issues) and to accuse people of making up or to imply people of making up reasons is not fair to those of us who have posted honest, truthful observations and opinions.

"People like to bash IK . . . ." is a gross generalization that gives people without their own experiences with IK a false sense that criticism of IK is unjustified.

Before I had my own experiences with IK, I saw many positive comments in the forum about IK which led me to overlook what I later learned were negatives.  I learned the hard way and wish there had been more comments pointing to the negatives so that I had more of a balanced perspective.

If there are statements in this thread that you are responding to (where you think forum members are "bashing" IK (or making what you feel are unjustified criticisms), please be specific and discuss the issues themselves instead of making generalizations like "People like to bash . . . ."  

Try..............KVR.................always happens in Bargain Center gossip.  I somehow left it out.

It's a trademark there.

[User 905133]

31 minutes ago, kitekrazy1 said:

Try..............KVR.................always happens in Bargain Center gossip.  I somehow left it out.

It's a trademark there.

Thanks for the clarification.  There have indeed been comments here about KVR's reputation for allowing all sorts of negative posts there.  Once I started reading a few sub forums there, I did see what seemed to me relentless / aggressive attacks on some makers of music software or some of their products.  I generally don't intentionally visit subforums like that. On the other hand I have seen at least one case where someone important (I presume a moderator?) closed down a thread that contained legitimate gripes.  Not sure if that was because KVR makes money from sales, if the moderator really likes the company's products, or other reasons why some threads get closed even if the criticisms are legit.  

Anyhow thanks for the clarification re: KRV.

Edited Friday at 02:48 PM by User 905133
fixed typo

[IK Multimedia]

On 1/16/2025 at 12:26 PM, kitekrazy1 said:

 Some forums have become nasty or more regulated to drive reps like Peter away.  He was so valuable to any forum.

Thank you for the kind words.  There are a lot of reasons, though, that I may not be on forums as much.  Yes, some forums are not interested in reps posting and I get it, but it does make it difficult to know what to say and what not to.  On top of that, I'm in charge of a lot of things (technically my title is Digital Marketing Manager) and have been at IK so long that I tend to be able to do a lot of things to help out internally when the need arises so things can get a bit, busy.  That sounded like a lot of excuses, but that's not how I meant it.  I think most people here know I do my best to be transparent about things like that and don't like to disappoint.

On 1/16/2025 at 2:29 PM, User 905133 said:

For the record, I have posted about legitimate issues I have had with IK.  I have also posted praise for things I thought were good.  I don't have the time to research and summarize all the issues I have addressed in the past, but to say there aren't issues (or there haven't been issues) and to accuse people of making up or to imply people of making up reasons is not fair to those of us who have posted honest, truthful observations and opinions.

That's fair too.  Thank you for the kind words and the constructive criticism.  This forum may know and believe more than most that I and quite a few IK employees have been relaying the good, bad, and ugly and have gone to the mat for some nice changes (like the elimination of the sound reactivation period/fees, one-click free transfer of TONEX Pedal/ONE with the great software bundled with it, etc).  We're not all the way there for everything but progress has been made.

On 1/16/2025 at 1:25 PM, Pragi said:

The software updates are regularly and  free and the support is very friendly and helpful, see IK Peter here in the forum or the group buys, special offers, etc.

Does Peter still appear here in the forum every now and then?

Thank you for the kind words, I'll let the support team know (they deserve to hear some nice things since I spend some of my time sending not-so-nice or fun requests from users online) too.  And, judging at least by this response yes I do appear!  Like a genie but without the three wishes haha.  Seriously, though, genies always have tricks with those wishes, I'll try to affect change without the trickery best I can.

[Andrew Aversa]

On 1/15/2025 at 9:54 PM, ToneDeF said:

I am curious what other folks think about audio software vendors who seem to be dead set against offering an exclusive loyalty discount to existing customers who already own most of the items in a bundle offering.  It seems wrong for an existing customer to be expected to purchase the bundle offering at the same price as a brand-new customer (who would be getting every item in the bundle for the first time) and re-purchase the majority of items just to pick up the remaining items at a discount.

Am I simply spoiled by the software vendors (like Kilohearts, Cherry Audio, UJAM, Waves, et al.) who will offer a customized discount based on items already owned by the customer?

We do this! We have automatic 'complete my bundle' logic; if you are logged in and add a bundle to your cart that you already own a component of, you'll get a proportional discount. But also, we have a Personalized Deals section which allows you to effectively create your own bundle with an increasing, scaling discount, that is further tailored based on # of products owned (including related products), kinda like Fabfilter.