Gain Staging

[giant ll]

Hello all. I use an app: Mvmeter 2. I usually set it to -18 Db.

Then.. if the 0 in the Mvmeter is set to -18DB.. i use to get all the tracks at about -3(i mean -3 in the scale of MVMETER). It should be a little bit under the -18 ideal value that is the 0.

If i put it on 0.. it get a little bit louder with some guitar sound.

Usually setting my audio Card input level to don't get the red level.. and i have a control panel for this.. i have a little bit lighter signal than 0..

After recording i use the gain, for gain staging.

If a track is too much under -18Db.. so under the 0 of MvTrack i put up the gain with Ctrl left button of the mouse and up mouse..

If it is too high.. i make the opposite.

Is that correct? NB: i use the 0 of MVMeter that is set to -18 DB not as peak but.. as medium value.

After all i make equalization and in the end the mastering

Edited October 7 by giant ll

[giant ll]

I mean this to 0.. this is too high.. for example. 0 should be -18

 

 

Edited October 7 by giant ll

[Glenn Stanton]

back in the bad old analog days, you ran hot to overcome systemic noise and ensure a good level on the tape. now with digital mostly have a noise floor below -100db, running hot will lead to digital clipping which is a problem unless you like that sound...

from the IO unit - most A/D converters are 24-bit - so you need to ensure you're hardware is running low enough to prevent peaks from clipping (or preface the IO with a manual volume control movements / compressor / limiter etc). the DAW will take that input (and presuming it's not clipping) will write that to the file (24-bit or 32-bit). 

reading from that file (clip), you need to consider the summing of all tracks (into buss(es) or your hardware output). decibels are ratios and logrithmic. if you have a single track (say a stereo live recording) you might just set it to -6db before exporting it for a mastering step. if you have 10 tracks, you might set each to -18db and set the master buss to -6db. and possibly tweak each track gain to reliable and as evenly hit those values before adjusting the volume of each.

ultimately adjusting levels depending on the material and export target.

i would just use the builting metering of CbB / Sonar as it has enough options for those types of decisions.

[Bass Guitar]

1 hour ago, Glenn Stanton said:

i would just use the built-in metering of CbB / Sonar as it has enough options for those types of decisions.

100% agree. They are good meters. I'd even say better than most other Daw's. They have a peak and hold reading, use it. If you want to use a meter plug in then the You Lean Meter will tell you all you need to know. The paid version is worth it because you can drag and drop your tracks into the GUI and get a accurate reading in seconds. LUFS are just as important as peaks.   https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

If I used -18 on my tracks the overall mix would probably be way to quiet. But I realize many people advise working that way. 

In my world each instrument gets a different peak and I have a system that seems to work for me 90% of the time. 

Example my targets for bass and drums is -8 to -6 db . Because they are midi it is easy to maintain this level using velocity and setting of the instruments.  Then Keyboards and rhythm guitars might be - 10 to -12. 

Vocal and lead guitar depending on music style,   get as high as -3db. They are  brick walled on to catch random peaks. I might use Melodyne to clean those tracks up and set a close level. Or a volume envelope. .  

Of course EQ is a big part of levels and LUFS.  But I start with these ball parks on each track. Then I use Busses to mix. 

My resulting mixes are  around -1.0 and -14Lufs. I put a brick wall on the master and I'm just about there. 

Edited October 7 by Bass Guitar

[giant ll]

2 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

LUFS are just as important as peaks.   https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

Yes. I use Loudness Meter. I've got the free version.

[giant ll]

6 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

if you have 10 tracks, you might set each to -18db and set the master buss to -6db. and possibly tweak each track gain to reliable and as evenly hit those values before adjusting the volume of each.

In my last project:

 

Yes i've got more than 10 tracks and i've set each to -18db.

I show you the master buss, with MvMeter  set to -6 db.  Here you can see my master buss settings.  The value of Mvmeter in the master is something like -6.3 that respect -6db that is the "zero" of the counter, is much lower. The medium average value is something like -10(respect the new "zero" set to -6db). Do i have to change something in settings here?

 

Edited October 7 by giant ll

[giant ll]

6 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

i would just use the builting metering of CbB / Sonar as it has enough options for those types of decisions.

Ok. I will try also to use just it, i usually used also some other dedicated apps.

Edited October 7 by giant ll

[giant ll]

3 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

My resulting mixes are  around -1.0 and -14Lufs. I put a brick wall on the master and I'm just about there.

This is my last mix.

It's about -11.7 Lufs Integrated and -1 set by the limiter.

[Amberwolf]

4 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

100% agree. They are good meters. I'd even say better than most other Daw's. They have a peak and hold reading, use it.

I use the in-track peak markers as well, so I can use automation to deal with the peaks as well as the main level of each track.

For further metering I use the old free version of Voxengo SPAN (which I use to find out things I need to EQ out either to fix problems or to just see what I need to make holes for in other tracks.).    Sometimes I pop in the free version of EAS Inspector to see what it tells me for it's various preset levels of strictness on the master bus.

 

@giant ll

If I EQ out stuff that a particular track doesn't need, then there's more room for energy in other tracks that do need that stuff, so the whole thing doesn't have to be as "loud" to get the same result.  It also makes the audio less muddy.  I use automation for some tracks that do need the stuff in some places, to reduce or turn off the EQ in those places.   

I tend to push mixes as close to 0dB as I can, because if I don't, then my tracks are too quiet and the few people that listen to them won't because they have to turn their volume up for them and then back down for their normal music. 

To help with that, I use the ancient but simple Sonitus Multiband compressor on tracks and/or busses as needed, using automation to turn things on and off whereever needed, bypassing or soloing bands, changing knees or levels, etc.   

 

The actual levels I use will vary (a lot) depending on the specific project, as some will need louder drums, some need quiet ones, etc.  

 

If you want to hear the results I get to see if they are applicable to your mixing / project style, there are a variety of different projects over at http://amberwolf.bandcamp.com 

The only ones that are not done in the methods above are in and below the row starting with the ancient Uncommon Ground album.  Everything above that is done with variations of the above methods, with the newest stuff at the top, which has the most developed versions of these methods and probably the best mixes. 

 

 

 

[giant ll]

Hi all. I would have a question on the same post.

I've got 30 tracks project. With guitar, drum, bass, voice i will put after. I have problems with LUFS. I try to explain:

With other projects using similar effect, and making limiter in the end, i didn't have the same problem. All worked quite good. In this project:

I have track 28, with new solo recording. Every track should be under the -18 of Vmeter, that in Vmeter is set to the 0. This track goes lot upper...

Should i reduce the gain on the main track? if i make this, i'm afraid don't have enogh volume in the end.

Photo 1 is the track 28 with effect, TH3.. 7.4 in red..

Photo 2 is the same track 28 withouth effect, TH3, really lower.

 

 

Edited November 10 by giant ll

[giant ll]

This is how the limiter is working.. in the end of prject. Photo 1. (Limiter is applied on the master channel). A

The second shows the master  of the entire project: it stays on green. Photo 2. Just a little orange sometimes, but really little.

Edited November 10 by giant ll

[giant ll]

This is the final project analisys.. -6 Integrated LUFS... for Youtube it's not good, right? Should be -14 , or i make usually something like -12 or similar.. What should i do, or change, for making somethings withouth losing volume final, that now is similar to other commercial Youtube videos?

Edited November 10 by giant ll

[hsmusic]

1 hour ago, giant ll said:

This is the final project analisys.. -6 Integrated LUFS... for Youtube it's not good, right? Should be -14 , or i make usually something like -12 or similar.. What should i do, or change, for making somethings withouth losing volume final, that now is similar to other commercial Youtube videos?

For YT & other streaming sites -9 through-14 LUfS would be fine if the mastered mix sounds good.

 -6 LUFS is very hot unless you're competing in the loudness war or going for that commercial genre placement.

[giant ll]

2 hours ago, hsmusic said:

For YT & other streaming sites -9 through-14 LUfS would be fine if the mastered mix sounds good.

 -6 LUFS is very hot unless you're competing in the loudness war or going for that commercial genre placement.

I've made a new version: -9.9 LUFS integrated is the new value result. I've just changed some parameter expecially on Limiter app and changed some gains.

Now it should be into the interval -9 / -14 , if the mix would sound fine.

I've made the test and for Youtube penalization should be only 0.1 if is correcvt.

 

Edited November 10 by giant ll

[giant ll]

I've made a final version. It's -11.2 LUFS integrated. Much better. It's not so different than some commercial videos as volume.

Now penalty is 0 on Youtube.  I think it's a really good compromise for volume, i ear it  with good volume even with mobile phone.

 

Edited November 11 by giant ll

[giant ll]

On 10/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

if you have 10 tracks, you might set each to -18db

On 10/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

Hello, i would have a question on this. -18db with or withouth effect every track? This point for me it's really important, because if i record with TH3 and some standard settings, if i measure the same track: withouth effect i have -38, with effect i have -8. There is 20 or 30 of difference from the nude track to the effected track. Really big. Find a good balance in that case isn't been really easy for me, in a new project and with some new TH3 effects i'm having this doubt.

 

Edited Friday at 12:45 PM by giant ll

[giant ll]

This happen to me connecting directly the guitar to the audiocard and using just TH3 as amplifier simulator and effects.

Also when i set the input level on the soundcard if i set it with TH3 on.. the automatic system reccomend me a very low input level, if i set it withouth with TH3 off, it reccomend me an higher level.

 

Usually the persons sets at -18 the nude track and apply the effects after i see, but in that case with guitar the drop is really big, so i have a doubt on this.

 

 

Edited Friday at 01:29 PM by giant ll

[giant ll]

On 10/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

if you have a single track (say a stereo live recording) you might just set it to -6db before exporting it for a mastering step

If for example i record a cover over a backing track, i have just 2 tracks.

1. Backing track.

2. Guitar theme and solo over the the backing track.

I can have lot of different tracks if i cut the solo in different parts... but just 2 tracks play toghether at the same time.

 

In that case could i considerate similar approach as single track? Or a bit lower.. For example -8db the guitar track, and -8db the backing track ?

Edited Friday at 01:35 PM by giant ll

[Glenn Stanton]

it depends on the headroom and noise etc. if you're recording it so you're not getting clipping or unwanted saturation in the preamp etc, then if the right level is -8 or -6, or -12, then choose that. with digital as long as you're not clipping, and as long as your input levels are sounding good, then it should be good. then when mixing, you'll do your volume level and send levels to provide the FX, busses etc with levels that they can handle.

[Sock Monkey]

Because I come from the world of recording to a machine I simply carried on using the same technique. I set my input gains below the threshold where they can clip. If I see Red I back it off. End of story. 
My recorded audio seems to always be right were I want it between-4 and -10 db. 
Once recorded I will use the Gain controller of each track if needed to get it set to my targets which are different for each type of instrument and vocals.

If needed , I even out differences with clip gain and automation. Might use a few compressors with a light touch. 
Then I have a bus for each section and those get limiters set for target peak levels. The song almost can mix its self at this point. 
It’s a matter of over time you get to know what those target levels are for each section- Bass- Drums-Keys- Horns- Guitar- Vocals. Sometimes a Pad/ String/ Fat Poly Synth bus. Reverb and Delay.  
Master has only a few Analyzers and a Peak limiter set for -1 .0 db.. 

Results will be in the ballpark of-13 LUFS. 
If the Master bus Limiter is working too much I back off on the Gain. 
 

Edited Saturday at 12:30 AM by Sock Monkey

[giant ll]

On 12/21/2024 at 1:20 AM, Sock Monkey said:

If I see Red I back it off. End of story. 

Yes. That's clear. I would have a question about if it's possible. About mastering but the two things are connected:

For don't going to red.. and also too much orange.. i had to reduce the gain of the guitar and the level of backing track, to put them at the same level.

The final level.. was too low and so.. i used limiter no6. I've put a peak on -1Db... as usual.. and put a little bit of enpowering.

 

Now i have the same level of some commercial Youtube videos, very good level, -11.5 LUFS integrated that i can bring also to -12, it's not a problem, the sound seem to me  clean for a homemade work.  But: How you can see in the photo i had to put the gain of peak limiter menu at +8, threshold to -1, Mode soft etc..

 

Is that normal putting the gain to +8 or should i find another way? Is too much?

Also i used in limiter, as you can see in the photo: compressor and protection.

 

Another thing is this: If i would add also Loudmax as maximizer with some settings to Limiter no6 i could enpower it much more.. but i prefer don't make it. I didn't make it. The sound would result a bit compressed in that way and withouth real attack.

Edited Sunday at 06:14 PM by giant ll