Gain Staging

[giant ll]

Hello all. I use an app: Mvmeter 2. I usually set it to -18 Db.

Then.. if the 0 in the Mvmeter is set to -18DB.. i use to get all the tracks at about -3(i mean -3 in the scale of MVMETER). It should be a little bit under the -18 ideal value that is the 0.

If i put it on 0.. it get a little bit louder with some guitar sound.

Usually setting my audio Card input level to don't get the red level.. and i have a control panel for this.. i have a little bit lighter signal than 0..

After recording i use the gain, for gain staging.

If a track is too much under -18Db.. so under the 0 of MvTrack i put up the gain with Ctrl left button of the mouse and up mouse..

If it is too high.. i make the opposite.

Is that correct? NB: i use the 0 of MVMeter that is set to -18 DB not as peak but.. as medium value.

After all i make equalization and in the end the mastering

Edited October 7, 2024 by giant ll

[Sock Monkey]

Because with almost every limiter I have used the efficiency of the limiter goes down if you use the built in gain too much. 
 

I never use the boost of the limiter for that reason. 
 

Edited January 9 by Sock Monkey

[giant ll]

2 hours ago, Sock Monkey said:

It seems to me you have a song that is needing you to deal with peaks at a track level. This results in red peak readings but low LUFS. 

It's a bit different the situation: the song doesn't have peaks that you can see at tracks level. Not withouth the Loudmax. It's not true that i'm trying to apply directly the limiter withouth have made before an analyze of the gains.. gain staging or other.. if you mean that the problem of the peak was due to the previous work...it was not like this. Yes.. my work can have some problems.. but the reality is a bit different. I worked on the gains and in the song there was "NO peaks problem" withouth loudmax. How you can see in this photo this is the value withouth loudmax: -6 is the peak of the final project( i mean the whole project). So it's much lower...  The low LUFS in this particular project i think it's due also  on a particular equalization. But the important it's not this:

There are 2 points:

1)I've understood now.. thinkin of it,, that there was just one problem, in one track: one percussion on guitar. The sound of this little, little, soft, difficult to ear.. percussion. It was so thin that i didn't give importance to this..  but this caused peak only when the song is "powered" with some limiter adjustement. Like a butterfly effect. It was just this. This little sound.. with the empowering made the project skip the peak limit set from the limiter.. and  go in the red just after the limiter process. That was the peak.. and that's why earing the song you shouldn't have the impression of where this peak was. The sound of this percussion was almost "invisible", and made the "peak fixed" of the limiter don't work, skip the level.. It's the first time that it happen to me..  Withouth this.. the peak set work perfectly with both the limiters(limiter no6 or Lodnmax). Don't go so high. I made it lot of times.. so.. i can just work on adjusting the peak of this particular sound, particular track. Withouth make nothing in the other tracks that are the "big part" of the work. And the "big work" didn't cause the peak. This is the important.

 

2) i have often a particularity: i reach a good sound staying on the green. Checking gains how is been usually reccomended me.. and withouth go to the red during the analysis of the gains... just i have a final volume of the project that is not pair to some commercial videos. I used that "setting" in the last part, to "empower" it withouth changing (or changing too much) the sound, usually works.  After i can work on gains again and find other solutions.. for sure.. but i think was important say the particular nature of that peak and how i think it comes from before arranging other changing.

 

Edited January 5 by giant ll

[Sock Monkey]

The easy fix then would be to turn up all your buses the same amount or turn up the Gain on the Master by about 5.5 db

Edited January 5 by Sock Monkey

[giant ll]

I mean this to 0.. this is too high.. for example. 0 should be -18

 

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by giant ll

[Glenn Stanton]

back in the bad old analog days, you ran hot to overcome systemic noise and ensure a good level on the tape. now with digital mostly have a noise floor below -100db, running hot will lead to digital clipping which is a problem unless you like that sound...

from the IO unit - most A/D converters are 24-bit - so you need to ensure you're hardware is running low enough to prevent peaks from clipping (or preface the IO with a manual volume control movements / compressor / limiter etc). the DAW will take that input (and presuming it's not clipping) will write that to the file (24-bit or 32-bit). 

reading from that file (clip), you need to consider the summing of all tracks (into buss(es) or your hardware output). decibels are ratios and logrithmic. if you have a single track (say a stereo live recording) you might just set it to -6db before exporting it for a mastering step. if you have 10 tracks, you might set each to -18db and set the master buss to -6db. and possibly tweak each track gain to reliable and as evenly hit those values before adjusting the volume of each.

ultimately adjusting levels depending on the material and export target.

i would just use the builting metering of CbB / Sonar as it has enough options for those types of decisions.

[Bass Guitar]

1 hour ago, Glenn Stanton said:

i would just use the built-in metering of CbB / Sonar as it has enough options for those types of decisions.

100% agree. They are good meters. I'd even say better than most other Daw's. They have a peak and hold reading, use it. If you want to use a meter plug in then the You Lean Meter will tell you all you need to know. The paid version is worth it because you can drag and drop your tracks into the GUI and get a accurate reading in seconds. LUFS are just as important as peaks.   https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

If I used -18 on my tracks the overall mix would probably be way to quiet. But I realize many people advise working that way. 

In my world each instrument gets a different peak and I have a system that seems to work for me 90% of the time. 

Example my targets for bass and drums is -8 to -6 db . Because they are midi it is easy to maintain this level using velocity and setting of the instruments.  Then Keyboards and rhythm guitars might be - 10 to -12. 

Vocal and lead guitar depending on music style,   get as high as -3db. They are  brick walled on to catch random peaks. I might use Melodyne to clean those tracks up and set a close level. Or a volume envelope. .  

Of course EQ is a big part of levels and LUFS.  But I start with these ball parks on each track. Then I use Busses to mix. 

My resulting mixes are  around -1.0 and -14Lufs. I put a brick wall on the master and I'm just about there. 

Edited October 7, 2024 by Bass Guitar

[giant ll]

2 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

LUFS are just as important as peaks.   https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

Yes. I use Loudness Meter. I've got the free version.

[giant ll]

6 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

if you have 10 tracks, you might set each to -18db and set the master buss to -6db. and possibly tweak each track gain to reliable and as evenly hit those values before adjusting the volume of each.

In my last project:

 

Yes i've got more than 10 tracks and i've set each to -18db.

I show you the master buss, with MvMeter  set to -6 db.  Here you can see my master buss settings.  The value of Mvmeter in the master is something like -6.3 that respect -6db that is the "zero" of the counter, is much lower. The medium average value is something like -10(respect the new "zero" set to -6db). Do i have to change something in settings here?

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

6 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

i would just use the builting metering of CbB / Sonar as it has enough options for those types of decisions.

Ok. I will try also to use just it, i usually used also some other dedicated apps.

Edited October 7, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

3 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

My resulting mixes are  around -1.0 and -14Lufs. I put a brick wall on the master and I'm just about there.

This is my last mix.

It's about -11.7 Lufs Integrated and -1 set by the limiter.

[Amberwolf]

4 hours ago, Bass Guitar said:

100% agree. They are good meters. I'd even say better than most other Daw's. They have a peak and hold reading, use it.

I use the in-track peak markers as well, so I can use automation to deal with the peaks as well as the main level of each track.

For further metering I use the old free version of Voxengo SPAN (which I use to find out things I need to EQ out either to fix problems or to just see what I need to make holes for in other tracks.).    Sometimes I pop in the free version of EAS Inspector to see what it tells me for it's various preset levels of strictness on the master bus.

 

@giant ll

If I EQ out stuff that a particular track doesn't need, then there's more room for energy in other tracks that do need that stuff, so the whole thing doesn't have to be as "loud" to get the same result.  It also makes the audio less muddy.  I use automation for some tracks that do need the stuff in some places, to reduce or turn off the EQ in those places.   

I tend to push mixes as close to 0dB as I can, because if I don't, then my tracks are too quiet and the few people that listen to them won't because they have to turn their volume up for them and then back down for their normal music. 

To help with that, I use the ancient but simple Sonitus Multiband compressor on tracks and/or busses as needed, using automation to turn things on and off whereever needed, bypassing or soloing bands, changing knees or levels, etc.   

 

The actual levels I use will vary (a lot) depending on the specific project, as some will need louder drums, some need quiet ones, etc.  

 

If you want to hear the results I get to see if they are applicable to your mixing / project style, there are a variety of different projects over at http://amberwolf.bandcamp.com 

The only ones that are not done in the methods above are in and below the row starting with the ancient Uncommon Ground album.  Everything above that is done with variations of the above methods, with the newest stuff at the top, which has the most developed versions of these methods and probably the best mixes. 

 

 

 

[giant ll]

Hi all. I would have a question on the same post.

I've got 30 tracks project. With guitar, drum, bass, voice i will put after. I have problems with LUFS. I try to explain:

With other projects using similar effect, and making limiter in the end, i didn't have the same problem. All worked quite good. In this project:

I have track 28, with new solo recording. Every track should be under the -18 of Vmeter, that in Vmeter is set to the 0. This track goes lot upper...

Should i reduce the gain on the main track? if i make this, i'm afraid don't have enogh volume in the end.

Photo 1 is the track 28 with effect, TH3.. 7.4 in red..

Photo 2 is the same track 28 withouth effect, TH3, really lower.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

This is how the limiter is working.. in the end of prject. Photo 1. (Limiter is applied on the master channel). A

The second shows the master  of the entire project: it stays on green. Photo 2. Just a little orange sometimes, but really little.

Edited November 10, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

This is the final project analisys.. -6 Integrated LUFS... for Youtube it's not good, right? Should be -14 , or i make usually something like -12 or similar.. What should i do, or change, for making somethings withouth losing volume final, that now is similar to other commercial Youtube videos?

Edited November 10, 2024 by giant ll

[hsmusic]

1 hour ago, giant ll said:

This is the final project analisys.. -6 Integrated LUFS... for Youtube it's not good, right? Should be -14 , or i make usually something like -12 or similar.. What should i do, or change, for making somethings withouth losing volume final, that now is similar to other commercial Youtube videos?

For YT & other streaming sites -9 through-14 LUfS would be fine if the mastered mix sounds good.

 -6 LUFS is very hot unless you're competing in the loudness war or going for that commercial genre placement.

[giant ll]

2 hours ago, hsmusic said:

For YT & other streaming sites -9 through-14 LUfS would be fine if the mastered mix sounds good.

 -6 LUFS is very hot unless you're competing in the loudness war or going for that commercial genre placement.

I've made a new version: -9.9 LUFS integrated is the new value result. I've just changed some parameter expecially on Limiter app and changed some gains.

Now it should be into the interval -9 / -14 , if the mix would sound fine.

I've made the test and for Youtube penalization should be only 0.1 if is correcvt.

 

Edited November 10, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

I've made a final version. It's -11.2 LUFS integrated. Much better. It's not so different than some commercial videos as volume.

Now penalty is 0 on Youtube.  I think it's a really good compromise for volume, i ear it  with good volume even with mobile phone.

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

On 10/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

if you have 10 tracks, you might set each to -18db

On 10/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

Hello, i would have a question on this. -18db with or withouth effect every track? This point for me it's really important, because if i record with TH3 and some standard settings, if i measure the same track: withouth effect i have -38, with effect i have -8. There is 20 or 30 of difference from the nude track to the effected track. Really big. Find a good balance in that case isn't been really easy for me, in a new project and with some new TH3 effects i'm having this doubt.

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

This happen to me connecting directly the guitar to the audiocard and using just TH3 as amplifier simulator and effects.

Also when i set the input level on the soundcard if i set it with TH3 on.. the automatic system reccomend me a very low input level, if i set it withouth with TH3 off, it reccomend me an higher level.

 

Usually the persons sets at -18 the nude track and apply the effects after i see, but in that case with guitar the drop is really big, so i have a doubt on this.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by giant ll

[giant ll]

On 10/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

if you have a single track (say a stereo live recording) you might just set it to -6db before exporting it for a mastering step

If for example i record a cover over a backing track, i have just 2 tracks.

1. Backing track.

2. Guitar theme and solo over the the backing track.

I can have lot of different tracks if i cut the solo in different parts... but just 2 tracks play toghether at the same time.

 

In that case could i considerate similar approach as single track? Or a bit lower.. For example -8db the guitar track, and -8db the backing track ?

Edited December 20, 2024 by giant ll