Offset for orchestra libraries?

[Amberwolf]

As Promidi notes, that feature doesn't move the data visually, it only compensates for the timing during playback.

You'd need to actually move the data itself by that many ticks to visually change where it is on screen.   If you select that data, then choose Process - Slide, you can enter the number of ticks and choose Ticks, to actually physically move the data to it's "real" position. 

[David Baay]

Time Offset is intended to compensate for synths with a slow response or attack. If the MIDI events are early or late in the timeline they should be moved to correct timing by any of the many methods, depending on the situation. This is especially important for to have the staff view display correctly.

[Leander]

How do you compose your songs and arrange instruments? I only had mediocre keyboards back then that played my songs without an offset...I write all my songs in Guitar Pro and have the midis.

Now I recorded my piano parts with my keyboard..but how do you record strings, flutes, brass etc. with different articulations either by playing them live or using midis? Every instrument has a different attack...staccatos are short and fast so they are ok...but legato etc. aren't...and my songs are metal tracks with a lot of keyboards...from 90 to 200 BPM...when writing backing strings, I cannot just play them live or use the midi as the VSL samples are late...but other ones, e.g. brass staccato, work well...

How do you use different instruments? I mean, the problem is not BPM based, but even if you play the piano with fast attack, then have slow strings, you cannot play your strings the same way you play your piano parts...do you use different offsets?
Or do you record or play everything with a fast attack, then bounce midi to audio and manually move recordings so they match the other instruments?

Where to start?

I am new to orchestra libraries and have only used hardware keyboards or libraries that "sound immediately" with no offset required.
Moving a track isn't the problem, but every instrument and articulation is different...so I would like to know where to start and how you do. 😊

e.g. there might be a part with 160 BPM, the string section plays some legato notes, some staccato, some other articulations...how do you do this so that all notes are triggered in time with the BPM/the drums/the programmed bass?

[OutrageProductions]

If the tempo is fast enough and the VST response is slow enough to be an issue with attack rise times, I use a separate instance of each instrument (VSL is notoriously slow attack) articulation and adjust each articulation track timing offset accordingly. 

[Promidi]

1 hour ago, Leander said:

I am new to orchestra libraries and have only used hardware keyboards or libraries that "sound immediately" with no offset required.
Moving a track isn't the problem, but every instrument and articulation is different...so I would like to know where to start and how you do. 😊

Even with hardware keyboards playing a sound with a slower attack, you might have subconsciously compensated for the delay of the transients....   especially for for Staccato strings.

If you have a MIDI track routed to a single instrument, you might want use MIDI track with a negative times offset for that track.

If you have a MIDI track routed to a single instrument but has several articulations, you might want use (create) Articulation Maps with times offset when needed.

[Leander]

15 hours ago, OutrageProductions said:

If the tempo is fast enough and the VST response is slow enough to be an issue with attack rise times, I use a separate instance of each instrument (VSL is notoriously slow attack) articulation and adjust each articulation track timing offset accordingly. 

Thanks! But does this mean I need one track per instrument AND articulation? e.g. a cello might play 8 notes, 4 of them slow, 4 staccato...so I must have a track just for staccato notes of the cello? And seperating the notes of an instrument (one channel) to several channels based on articulations sounds tedious.

[OutrageProductions]

It is tedious. But to get to the magic that you desire, some work is required.

If the articulation changes are short and sweet in a passage, either ignore the delay, or edit the individual note(s) timing in the phrase. If the articulation change involves a complete phrase/section/passage, then it might make sense to put that on another instantiation of the instrument/articulation.

As mentioned previously, you can use ArtMaps and set individual articulations to have different offsets, which will change the timing that the articulations take effect (in case some instruments react slowly to changes in articulation [I've found that Scarbee & VSL have some issues with this])... however, this will not affect the actual attack timing of the instrumental note itself.
Some Spitfire and VSL instruments have internal timing offsets available, but for the entire instrument. There are YT vids re: VSL covering this.

Scoring well is not easy, which is why so few of us make a living doing it.

Edited February 5 by OutrageProductions

[David Baay]

33 minutes ago, Leander said:

But does this mean I need one track per instrument AND articulation? e.g. a cello might play 8 notes, 4 of them slow, 4 staccato...so I must have a track just for staccato notes of the cello? And seperating the notes of an instrument (one channel) to several channels based on articulations sounds tedious.

You can use the forced output channel of each track so you don't need to be concerned about the embedded channel of the recorded/sequenced/drawn MIDI events. The alternative is to get Sonar and use the Absolute Time Offset option in its Articulation Map implementation to change the offset in the region where a particular articulation is used. This is why the absolute time offset in Sonar was originally implemented as an Articulation type rather than a whole-track offset.

Edited February 5 by David Baay

[Leander]

Thanks!

It is easy with other libraries...just pick an instrument or sound, use keyswitches... e.g. BestService libraries (flutes, ethnic instruments...)...

Will Sonar work with VSL Synchron Strings Pro, Brass, Woodwinds etc. so I can set different offsets for every instrument AND articulation?

[Leander]

I know, thanks. I have everything on SSDs.

Sometimes I don't even know what articulation a real e.g. violin would play. Here are legato notes, two staccato notes and then a run with triplets...but what articulation would you choose? Mp3 attached.

(GM wavetable sound)

[msmcleod]

On 2/5/2025 at 7:35 PM, OutrageProductions said:

As mentioned previously, you can use ArtMaps and set individual articulations to have different offsets, which will change the timing that the articulations take effect (in case some instruments react slowly to changes in articulation [I've found that Scarbee & VSL have some issues with this])... however, this will not affect the actual attack timing of the instrumental note itself.

Just to clarify:  The offset is in the transforms section, not the triggers (i.e. key switches) section.  It applies the offset to all notes that fit the specified criteria for the duration of the articulation, so the actual notes will be played earlier (for negative offsets) or later (for positive offsets) than they show on the grid.

For the time being, there is no offset for triggers/key switches. You can however set the articulation to start slightly earlier which will have the same effect.

On 2/5/2025 at 7:08 PM, Leander said:

Thanks! But does this mean I need one track per instrument AND articulation? e.g. a cello might play 8 notes, 4 of them slow, 4 staccato...so I must have a track just for staccato notes of the cello? And seperating the notes of an instrument (one channel) to several channels based on articulations sounds tedious.

What I would do here is have a single track per instrument, but use multiple articulations on the track.   

In other words, you'd have a Cello Legato articulation and a Cello Staccato articulation.   Both articulations would contain the key switches necessary to switch to that sound, but also optionally a negative note timing offset to make up for a slow attack for any notes playing while that articulation is active.

As mentioned earlier though - note timing offsets are only available in Sonar, not CbB.

[Leander]

Thank you!