Offset for orchestra libraries?

[Leander]

Hello!

I use VSL Special Edition. Slower parts are ok and are played back well, but some orchestral parts at 200 BPM (metal with strings etc.) does not work. I use programmed drums so everything is on the beat...

When searching for offsets, Google tells you to enter those in your DAW...but where is this in Cakewalk? I found a thread that it will be implemented or already was? But where is it?

Or will it only be in the Cakewalk Sonar version and NOT in Cakewalk by Bandlab?

I bought Cakewalk Sonar Professional years ago...for 199€ I think...will I be able to transfer the license as I am not "just another" free Bandlab by Cakewalk user?

My main question is is this offset is already in Cakewalk by Bandlab or will be added or will only be in Cakewalk Sonar at a later point?

Thanks!

[OutrageProductions]

Open the MIDI channel in the <Inspector>. On the right channel strip well below the Arpeggiator section are slots for <Key +> and below that <Time +>.

Enter a negative offset in the <Time +> field to have quantized notes play earlier in time so that the ramp up is fast enough to be on the beat. I've found that most VSL strings need about -30, some slower attack patches need -50 to -70 (in milliseconds), especially for faster tempos.

Edited October 4, 2024 by OutrageProductions

[Promidi]

This offset can be adjust in the MIDI or Simple Instrument Track Inspector.   This is just above the patch browser.  Look for the Time+0.

Note this value is in ticks, not absolute time.  This means that the actual time offset will vary depending on the tempo.

The number of ticks for quarter note is determined by your clock settings in Preferences - Project - clock. 

 

[David Baay]

As noted, CbB has a simple tick-based offset in each track via the Time+ widget that affects the whole track. Sonar additionally allows setting an absolute time offset via Articulation maps to accomodate changing tempos and applying  different offsets in different parts of a track if necessary.

[Leander]

Thank you! So this feature is available for Cakewalk by Bandlab too and I don't need to get the upcoming Sonar version?

[Promidi]

1 hour ago, Leander said:

Thank you! So this feature is available for Cakewalk by Bandlab too and I don't need to get the upcoming Sonar version?

Only Sonar 2024 lets you use use articulation maps to specify offset delay (in ticks or in milliseconds). 

In CbB, the only way to set an offset delay is in the MIDI or Simple Instrument Track's inspector - and that is only in ticks.

Edited October 4, 2024 by Promidi

[Leander]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:11 AM, OutrageProductions said:

Open the MIDI channel in the <Inspector>. On the right channel strip well below the Arpeggiator section are slots for <Key +> and below that <Time +>.

Enter a negative offset in the <Time +> field to have quantized notes play earlier in time so that the ramp up is fast enough to be on the beat. I've found that most VSL strings need about -30, some slower attack patches need -50 to -70 (in milliseconds), especially for faster tempos.

Sorry for the late reply. I cannot find the midi inspector. I have the German version. Where can I find the arpeggiator, key+ and time+? Can you please share a screenshot so I can find it? Do you mean the piano roll?

I don't have a midi channel and an audio channel with the VSTi as an effect, but use the "add synthisizer" function, then import the midi track. I can only add audio effects to that synth track, but not midi plugins such as chord analyzer, velocity, transpose etc.

Edited January 14 by Leander

[OutrageProductions]

Key command 'I' (eye) opens the Inspector panel to the left of the track view. At the bottom of the Inspector is a MIDI tab.

Also available from <View><Inspector>.

Edited January 14 by OutrageProductions

[David Baay]

And just FYI for posterity, Sonar has since added an Absolute Time offset (milliseconds) option to the Time+ setting in the Inspector which is easier to use than the articulation-based offset if you just need one fixed value for a whole track.

[Leander]

21 hours ago, OutrageProductions said:

Key command 'I' (eye) opens the Inspector panel to the left of the track view. At the bottom of the Inspector is a MIDI tab.

Also available from <View><Inspector>.

Thanks. Ah, it is hidden down there...I see it for the first time. I have to scroll down to see it.  How do I navigate there? There are no scroll bars to click...I can only scroll up and down with the mouse wheel, but this also messes up certain settings when the mouse is over them. I only have one monitor and a 1920x1080 resolution.

The problem was that I did not see "midi" there because the default of my plugins is that they are displayed in a tiny bottom-left window there.

 

[Leander]

How do I navigate there? There are no scroll bars...I have to guess where to scroll with the mouse wheel, but when the mouse is over a slider, it will not only scroll the window, but also mess up settings, e.g. swing, pitch, flam etc.

[OutrageProductions]

In your first screenshot, you have discovered that the tabs for <Display><Audio><MIDI> are covered by any current plugin window that is open and minimized. Yes this can be an issue without resolution. Either close out of the minimized plugin window or return it to normal size and park it somewhere else on the main or alternate monitors. You CAN, however hover over any open plugin (most of 'em, anyway) on the little "FX" icon in the upper left corner, RMB and choose <Dock in Multidock>, where it will live until you close or remove it from there. That can be handy, and a more lasting approach to having a plugin window open and accessible, yet not showing and blocking the lower left corner of the real-estate. Hopefully you know that the key command "D" operates the Multidock. Don't forget that you can undock the entire Multidock and place it elsewhere too.

In your second screen shot (green outline) you have all of the controls in the <Inspector> available and showing. AFAIK there has never been the ability/requirement to "scroll" in the inspector (using a typical scroll bar) WHEN IN FULL window screen mode.
Since I run all of my DAWS on 4 different 27" monitors [Track View / Piano Roll / Console / Plugins], and have never really used them when NOT in full screen mode, I'm afraid that I can't help you with that any further.

You might set your windows Task Bar to 'auto-hide' (RMB on Task bar - Task Bar Settings)
and/or;
in the DAW, go to the <Window> menu, and choose <Full Screen> for a little more screen real-estate.

CbB/Sonar is not often my primary DAW anymore, so I'm pulling most of this from memory.

YMMV

Edited Wednesday at 12:37 AM by OutrageProductions

[Kurre]

Click on the tab that is highlighted on the top of the inspector. That hides the top window.

Forgive me if i misunderstand this situation.

[David Baay]

14 hours ago, Leander said:

Ah, it is hidden down there...I see it for the first time. I have to scroll down to see it.  How do I navigate there? There are no scroll bars to click...I can only scroll up and down with the mouse wheel, but this also messes up certain settings when the mouse is over them. I only have one monitor and a 1920x1080 resolution.

So far as I know, the mouse wheel is the only way to scroll the Inspector. In addition to using Full Screen mode as suggested, you can quickly toggle the Control Bar closed/open by the default shortcut 'C'.  You might also consider removing less frequently used modules from the Inspector by the Display dropdown at the bottom.

But ultimately, CbB/Sonar really need a little more vertical resolution; 1200 is sufficient.

 

[Leander]

Thanks a lot!

One more question: Can this offset be only applied to midi tracks (midi tracks exported with Guitar Pro for example)? What about playing a VSTi instrument live and recording the midi? Do you have to press the keys in time or can you use an offset so the e.g. string library is triggered correctly when you press the keyboard button correctly in real time?

Is this something only the full Sonar version is capable of or Cakewalk by Bandlab as well?

I bought Cakewalk Sonar Professional (for about 199€) years ago before it became Bandlab...but I don't think I can get the new version for free because it is subscription-based.

[msmcleod]

4 hours ago, Leander said:

Thanks a lot!

One more question: Can this offset be only applied to midi tracks (midi tracks exported with Guitar Pro for example)? What about playing a VSTi instrument live and recording the midi? Do you have to press the keys in time or can you use an offset so the e.g. string library is triggered correctly when you press the keyboard button correctly in real time?
 

The offset can be applied to any MIDI track, including the MIDI track portion of a simple instrument track.  Use the MIDI tab at the bottom right of the Inspector to access the MIDI page for instrument tracks.

It's impossible to apply a negative offset to live input.  You're asking CbB/Sonar to play the note before you have!

There are three methods to workaround this:

1.  Use a different instrument for recording that doesn't require a delay, then swap to the instrument you want after recording; OR
2. Positively delay all other tracks, leaving the track that requires a delay without a delay; OR
3. Record your part normally, then nudge the clip by the required amount once you stop recording.  You can set 3 custom nudge amounts in preferences.
 

4 hours ago, Leander said:

Is this something only the full Sonar version is capable of or Cakewalk by Bandlab as well?
 

Cakewalk by BandLab and SONAR Professional/Platinum only allow Time+ in ticks.  The new Sonar allows Time+ in either ticks or ms.

If you're using CbB/SONAR Professional:

• If the tempo of your project is the same throughout, then you can calculate the ticks equivalent in milliseconds for a given tempo and set it accordingly. 
• If the tempo of your project changes, you'll need to create a separate track for each tempo change and do that calculation for each track.

To convert milliseconds into ticks: 

1 beat is 960 ticks.
Say the tempo is 120bpm.    120 beats per minute is  ( 120 / 60 seconds ) = 2 beats per second.   
That means there are 960 * 2 ticks in every second at 120bpm.   960 * 2 = 1920 ticks per second.  
There are 1000 milliseconds in a second,  so 1 millisecond  ( 1920 / 1000 ) = 1.920 ticks

So the formula is:

ticks = ( ( 960 * ( tempo_bpm / 60 ) ) / 1000 ) * milliseconds

This is probably more easily done in a spreadsheet (e.g. Excel, LibreOffice/OpenOffice calc):


 

[Leander]

Thank you! I'll try that.

My songs use a lot of tempo changes, about 5-10. It sounds tricky because somes string libraries use mod wheels etc...I don't know how I should record the e.g. violin at 160 BPM or a string section that accompanies metal guitars...and the guitars and drums are tight.

[Promidi]

17 hours ago, msmcleod said:

1 beat is 960 ticks.

I might be wrong on this but I believe this is a per project setting and is set in Preferences - Project - Clock > Ticks per Quarter-Note.

This may be important if you have loaded older Cakewalk project or a MIDI file created with an older DAW (not only Cakewalk).

[Sam Stalos]

With reference to the Midi offset in the Inspection panel for correction of timing errors:

I am using CakewalkBandLab 2024.07 in Windows 11. I have a .wav file on track 1 and a Midi file conversion on track 2. The midi track conversion was accomplished on another site. I find that the midi track is off in its timing by 346 ticks (assuming 960 ticks per beat), so I accessed the Inspector panel referenced above, found the T + offset sub menu, and set that value to +346. See attached photo.

I had already highlighted the midi notes by manually holding down the mouse button and dragging the cursor (with the Select icon) around the notes in the midi track. I could not get the "Select -- All after Now" function to work.

When I hit the Enter Key after setting the offset value to +346, nothing moved, i.e. the timing of the selected midi notes did not move. Since the T+1 offset value was set to +346, I expected the timing of each note (chord in my case) to be adjusted by 346 ticks.

What did I do wrong? Something obvious I hope.

P.S. I assume the thumbnail photos below are just cropped in this preview mode. 

[Promidi]

4 minutes ago, Sam Stalos said:

When I hit the Enter Key after setting the offset value to +346, nothing moved, i.e. the timing of the selected midi notes did not move. Since the T+1 offset value was set to +346, I expected the timing of each note (chord in my case) to be adjusted by 346 ticks.

What did I do wrong? Something obvious I hope.

When you use the MIDI time offset, the MIDI events themselves in the tracks do not move position.  Only the actual trigger time changes in response to what ever you have entered in the MIDI time offset field.

With a value of +346, the trigger time of all MIDI events will be 346 ticks after the time position at which they appear.  If you enter a value of -346, the trigger time of all MIDI events will be 346 ticks before the time position at which they appear.  The events themselves do not actually move as they appear.