Send Sysex/RPN/NRPN to VST plugins

[MusicallyInspired]

This is something that's been plaguing me for years. It got so bad that I started looking for another DAW to work with. However, it seems there aren't any other DAWs that work as specifically with MIDI events to the most minute details that I need it to in near as well a way as Cakewalk does. And it is wonderful at this. But I have many VSTi plugins that can accept Sysex and RPN/NRPN messages and some of their features are only accessible via these MIDI commands. Many synth emulator VSTi's and sound chip emulator VSTi's can accept Sysex and RPN/NRPN but because Cakewalk can't do that, some of these features are inaccessible in my projects because there are no GUI elements for them in the plugin itself. They're only usable through Sysex/RPN.

There are other DAWs that have this feature though so it's strange to me why Cakewalk never bothered adding this functionality. It is a crucial part of my workflow for the projects I'm working on. If I run these VSTs outside of Cakewalk and access them through a loopback MIDI driver then it works, of course, because Cakewalk has no problems sending these messages to a MIDI output port. But then I lose the ability to capture the audio output from those plugins back into Cakewalk for bouncing down. So it becomes a long and tedious process to somehow capture that audio and import it back into Cakewalk. Making changes is even worse. And forget about previewing because the latency for anything outside of Cakewalk makes that useless as well.

I'd really love to see this capability considered and added at least into the new Cakewalk Sonar if not in Cakewalk by Bandlab (since feature updates are being phased out as I understand it). Any chance of this happening, Cakewalk?

[John Vere]

I haven’t tried this but a possible work around might be to loop back midi to the synth track. 
Now add an Aux track 

Send the synth to the Aux track , put the Aux track in Recording mode and record it. 

This is the trick I use to record the metronome. 
 

[MusicallyInspired]

If you're talking about launching the VST in a separate process outside of Cakewalk this won't work because I'm using my interface's ASIO driver for sound. Launching the VST in a separate process and capturing its output in real time with Cakewalk won't work this way because Windows frustratingly does not allow the use of one ASIO device between multiple programs simultaneously. On top of that, Cakewalk will not use more than one ASIO driver at a time (probably the same Windows limitation) so it can't capture the output from another driver within the same project either. Besides, even if it could it would make composing frustrating because of the audio delay between drivers.

If you're talking about somehow using a loopback MIDI driver with the VST loaded within Cakewalk, that still won't work because the fundamental problem is that Cakewalk is not designed to allow a VST to receive sysex/rpn/nrpn messages no matter where it comes from. It can (currently) only be done by using a separate host process to load the VST besides Cakewalk.

Edited July 30 by MusicallyInspired

[azslow3]

The proposal was to loop MIDI externally and hope SysEx will be delivered (Aux track recording was just to record audio, inside Cakewalk). I have quickly checked, but it seems like that does not work...

Several applications can use ASIO, but only some drivers allow that (f.e. RME). Single application can't use multiple ASIO, that is an ASIO creator (and owner) decision.

You can wait for Cakewalk implementation, try to use ReWire or other multi-app tricks... or just switch to another DAW with reasonable MIDI routing, find (or create) Ctrlr (or similar) panels for controlling and proceed with music creation. Cakewalk MIDI editing is nice, but (may be apart from Step Sequencer...) I don't think there is something significantly harder to achieve in other DAWs. MIDI routing and processing are definitively not in the list of Cakewalk advantages (only "workaround" style VST MIDI processing and simply no MIDI routing at all).

With the DAW I propose you can: open your Cakewalk project and continue or ReWire / ASIO link Cakewalk to use both in parallel. Sorry, I don't have other proposals...

[MusicallyInspired]

MIDI routing is fine in Cakewalk. Beautiful, really. At least for me. But it's specifically MIDI event handling that I'm talking about that I haven't seen proof of that other DAWs can handle as nicely. Bringing up the MIDI Event List window for instance (as opposed to the Piano Roll) and adding/editing events and all of their details is not something I've seen anywhere else but Cakewalk, unless I'm mistaken. If you have a suggestion for another DAW that has this function please let me know.

As for ReWire, what program would I use to ReWire with Cakewalk? The only one I have is an old version of Reason that doesn't support VSTs and the latest version doesn't support ReWire (it instead provides its module rack as a VSTi itself). Are there any separate dedicated VST host programs that can connect to Cakewalk via ReWire? (I'm not even sure that Cakewalk supports sending sysex to ReWire devices any more than VSTs, but I haven't tried)

[azslow3]

On 8/28/2024 at 6:54 PM, MusicallyInspired said:

Bringing up the MIDI Event List window for instance (as opposed to the Piano Roll) and adding/editing events and all of their details is not something I've seen anywhere else but Cakewalk, unless I'm mistaken. If you have a suggestion for another DAW that has this function please let me know.

There is a DAW with flexible MIDI routing. In that DAW all strips are tracks, but they can act as an audio track/MIDI track /bus (audio and/or MIDI)/folder, even at the same time (all that are separate strips in Cakewalk, which can be used for one purpose only).  Any Track can have  up to 128 audio channels and up to 128 MIDI buses (mono/stereo/surround audio or one MIDI bus for MIDI track in Cakewalk). Any track can send/output to any other track (audio and MIDI) (audio can be sent to buses or patch points in Cakewalk, MIDI can't be sent directly).  You can explicitly specify which audio channels and MIDI bus are used for every FX/Instrument on the track, separately for each (always complete set for the strip in Cakewalk). You can easily use VST MIDI processors (in Cakewalk you need DX formatted processor or declare VST MIDI processor as a synth, routing its MIDI outputs to a separate MIDI track, which introduce extra MIDI latency and makes explicit MIDI input specification mandatory for all MIDI tracks). You have "Input FXes", so you can process audio/MIDI before it is recorded (can't be done with MIDI in Cakewalk, for audio only possible throw patch-points/aux tracks).  MIDI and audio can modulate parameters (f.e. you can control value of a synth/fx parameters by current level from your mic), parameters can modulate other parameters  (both not possible in Cakewalk).

SysEx and (N)RPNs (the later are in fact a series of specific CCs) and sent to VST(i). Event List view exists. MIDI event handling is directly as VSTi get it (in Cakewalk it is DX oriented).

As already mentioned, you can run both DAWs in parallel, with ReWire and/or Audio Link. Or just open Cakewalk project (not everything will work one-to-one, some adjustments may be required).

---

Please note I don't say that other DAW is "better in everything and for everyone". Cakewalk is toward "created by musicians for musicians". The other DAW is more "created by programmers for programmers"... 😏  But if your work with GUI-less VSTi(s), need Ctrlr or similar mappings/control, want use in-DAW modulations/parameter linking or scripted MIDI/audio processing, you need something designed with all that features. 

[Jim Fogle]

@azslow3, somehow I'm missing the name of the DAW you're referencing in your post above.  

[azslow3]

12 hours ago, Jim Fogle said:

@azslow3, somehow I'm missing the name of the DAW you're referencing in your post above.  

Somehow reading some posts in the Coffee House I have decided not mention its name explicitly... Even so famous musicians have proposed "don't fear" it long time ago 😏

[Jim Fogle]

@azslow3, I seldom frequent the Coffee House so I know not of what you speak.

Has this forum really gotten so weird that you feel uncomfortable mentioning other DAWS by name?  I sincerely hope not.

[reginaldStjohn]

I can see him getting that feeling. It recent events that have happened in the deal's forum.

[azslow3]

1 hour ago, Jim Fogle said:

@azslow3, I seldom frequent the Coffee House so I know not of what you speak.

Has this forum really gotten so weird that you feel uncomfortable mentioning other DAWS by name?  I sincerely hope not.

Yes,  uncomfortable. We are in the "Feedback" board. And there are new people with power on this forum.  So I am not sure it is (still) ok.

But well, I was comparing MIDI routing/processing capabilities in Cakewalk DAW(s) with Cockos DAW.

[Jim Fogle]

@azslow3, thank you for responding to my question.   You certainly have offered a lot of assistance to other forum members.  I trust what you write to be either accurate (mostly of a technical or programming) information or a considered and informed opinion.  I'm sorry you do not feel comfortable in certain areas inside the forum.  I apologize for pushing for a product name.

I believe every DAW has unique strengths and weaknesses that make each DAW unique.  Every DAW user also can have special needs that are met better with one DAW than another.  I have not used or looked at many DAWs.  I have no way to know what works best in certain situations other than comments I read from forum members whose opinion I value.  My goal was to be exposed to interesting information, not to make you uncomfortable.

Edited September 15 by Jim Fogle