minminmusic Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 iCon P1-M/X system. Within their iMap software, the EQ button is mapped to midi note 44 and the Plug-In button is mapped to 43. If I press EQ it displays as much of the functions in it's display window that it can (that's another issue I'm trying to sort as it's only displaying the first 16 options and I can't scroll to the remaining options.) If I press the Plug-In button...it goes right to the EQ. I can place and effect in the Plug-In bin and it won't access it. I'm wondering if that's kind of a dead function with how Cakewalk has implemented MCU? Pan works. Send works if a send is currently set up on that track. Would be nice if send could be added and assigned with that function but most likely a limitation of how the MCU protocol is set up in Sonar. Seems I "might" be able to squeak a little more functionality out of this set-up that fits with my workflow but have to figure out how to use hotkeys a little better withing CbB/Sonar. Not sure if any outside software might be able to be layered inbetween the controller, the iMap software and Cakewalk to bring a tiny bit more functionality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 I'm using Cakewalk with a Mackie Control Universal (MCU), Mackie Control Extender (XT) and Mackie Control C4. I literally have zero problems and it works exactly as it should. I have control to all tracks / buses / mains, all plugins, and all synths in the synth rack. My main workflow is to use the MCU/XT for fader & pan controls, and the C4 for all plugin duties as it has 32 rotary controls. It's far more likely that the iCon isn't behaving like a real MCU than a Cakewalk issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 19 Author Share Posted July 19 So I opened up MIDI Tools without Cakewalk running. Pressed the Comp, EQ and Plug-In button/commands one after the other to see what the iCON was sending out MIDI note-wise and this is what I got. Does anything not look correct from what it's listing? Assuming that this is what MCU has built in for most of the major commands...MIDI note info? Within the iMap software all three are listed as Message Type Note/Channel 1/Note Name-Value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 19 Author Share Posted July 19 In addition to the above...just had an interesting observation regarding the access to additional EQ parameters. If I use the Mackie Control driver...I can have partial access to the missing 5 or so EQ options to the "right" if I press the EQ button twice. It scrolls it towards the right as you'd expect. But...that's at the expense of the first 5 or so options that no longer display on the "far left". If I use the MMcL drivers...I now have access to the first couple of EQ parameters, but cannot toggle/scroll it towards the right to see the missing options. "Plug-Ins" doesn't work on either. I did also toggle between the 4 options of Mackie Protocol and the Sonar one seems to work best (as expected.) The others were about the same to doesn't work at all with the iCon. Using AZslow's AZ Controller I can see the last Midi notes sent from the iCon appear to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 MMcL vs Cakewalk Mackie Control The MMcL Mackie Control DLL is essentially no different from the stock Sonar one. All the enhancements I did for the MMcL version have been merged back into the Sonar/Cakewalk Mackie Control DLL. When you use the Mackie Control surface DLL (including Mackie Control XT and Mackie Control C4), any control surfaces using them act as a team - so in my setup, the MCU, XT and C4 all act as if they were one big control surface. Changing from tracks to buses for example, will change to buses mode on all three devices. What the MMcL DLL does give you is it allows you to use an additional control surface (or set of control surfaces) independently from another set of control surfaces. In other words, it's not part of the "team" that other control surfaces are in. What you can't see in my picture above is the nanoKONTROL 2 I've got stuck to the wall next to my vocal mic in the corner of the room. This is set to use the MMcL Mackie Control, so that I can control a completely different set of tracks/buses without affecting what the MCU/XT/C4 are using. At one point I had a Behringer BCF2000 that was set to control buses using MMcL Mackie Control, while the MCU/XT/C4 could be set to control tracks. Unless you need that kind of a set up, just stick to the stock Mackie Control DLL. Plugin Parameters As far as parameters are concerned, the parameters available and their ordering is defined within MackieControl.ini. If no entry is found for a particular plugin, you'll get all parameters available in the order they present themselves to Cakewalk. Details on editing MackieControl.ini can be found in the Mackie Control help - or alternatively you could use my C4 Mapper utility which will edit the file for you. You'll want to restrict your parameter/v-pot mappings to the top row only, as the other three rows are only available on the C4. You can download the utility here: https://msmcleod.co.uk/cakewalk/C4Mapper.zip EQ vs Dynamics vs Plugins buttons Within MackieControl.ini, each plugin can be given a type of EQ, Dynamics or General. If you press the EQ button, then you'll only see the EQ plugins; pressing Dynamics will only show you the dynamics plugins. The Plugins button will show all plugins on that track, regardless of type. On the MCU and C4, the up / down cursor keys navigate through plugins, and the left / right keys navigate through the parameters on the current plugin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 (edited) Ok...thank you for the details, gaining a little better understanding. So for all intents and purposes, for the iCon I should stick with the regular Mackie driver? But...take a look at these pics. The first pick is me using the MMcL driver. The first five displays show the on/off, type...etc. With this mode I can see those functions but not the last couple (16 displays and they don't display the higher frequencies). Hitting the EQ (Note 44) button twice doesn't do anything to show the additional parameters. Hitting the Plug-In button (Note 43) only show the EQ settings even if 1 plug-in is loaded into the FX bin. Pic 2 is me using the Mackie drivers. EQ starts at LFFreq so it's missing the first 5 shown in Pic 1...BUT...it allows me to hit the EQ button twice and the display refreshes on 1-8 and NOW shows the remaining 6 EQ settings. So sending the same midi note out of the controller gets two different reactions from Sonar depending on which Mackie driver is used. And the settings are set up identical in the MMcL and the Mackie drivers so are they a true roll up of the "same" driver minus the ability to have them work in unison (Mackie) versus the main unit and extender having the flexibility of being controlled independently (MMcL). Why would I get two different behaviors depending on which driver I use in Cakewalk? Feels like my needs need a mashup of the two drivers because obviously they are working slightly different. PIC 1 - MMcL Pic 2 - Mackie Driver Edited July 20 by minminmusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 (edited) So...aside from the differences between the two drivers and the Comp/EQ/Plug-In buttons listed in my most recent post above (for some reason that post states it's waiting for approval), if in the Mackie driver I check "Exclude filter from Plug-Ins" it now displays the first effect in my FX bin but no access to the Comp/EQ (as expected?) But hitting the Plug-In button twice does not shift the focus of the displays over to the missing items. This behavior may not be the end of the world for me as I'm ultimately looking to hook up an additional controller (the Rocksolid Audio Micro 4k https://rocksolidaudioltd.com/products/micro-4k). If checking the Exclude Filters from Plug-Ins shuts off access to the Cakewalk ProChannel FX and I pre-insert a SSL style plugin that's been mapped for the Rock Solid Micro4k, wondering if hitting the Plug-In window now brings "Focus" to that first effect in the FX Bin and Micro4k, with it's own midi driver, now has control of that plug-in. They are backordered on the controller so can't really test a test but if I could find a way to do that that would be a huge plus in my workflow. Edited July 20 by minminmusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 hour ago, minminmusic said: Ok...thank you for the details, gaining a little better understanding. So for all intents and purposes, for the iCon I should stick with the regular Mackie driver? But...take a look at these pics. The first pick is me using the MMcL driver. The first five displays show the on/off, type...etc. With this mode I can see those functions but not the last couple (16 displays and they don't display the higher frequencies). Hitting the EQ (Note 44) button twice doesn't do anything to show the additional parameters. Hitting the Plug-In button (Note 43) only show the EQ settings even if 1 plug-in is loaded into the FX bin. Pic 2 is me using the Mackie drivers. EQ starts at LFFreq so it's missing the first 5 shown in Pic 1...BUT...it allows me to hit the EQ button twice and the display refreshes on 1-8 and NOW shows the remaining 6 EQ settings. So sending the same midi note out of the controller gets two different reactions from Sonar depending on which Mackie driver is used. And the settings are set up identical in the MMcL and the Mackie drivers so are they a true roll up of the "same" driver minus the ability to have them work in unison (Mackie) versus the main unit and extender having the flexibility of being controlled independently (MMcL). Why would I get two different behaviors depending on which driver I use in Cakewalk? Feels like my needs need a mashup of the two drivers because obviously they are working slightly different. Have you installed the MMcL Mackie Control to the same directory as where your Sonar one is? They should both be in C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared Surfaces\ Your directory should look something like this: All the MackieControl dll's look for MackieControl.ini in the current directory, so if for some reason you have them in different directories and they're looking at a different MackieControl.ini, then that might explain the differences. FWIW - I've just compared the source of the CbB/Sonar version of MackieControl.dll with the source of MackieControl-MMcL - they're essentially the same. The only difference is the registered classId (which has to be different so it comes up as a different control surface), and the fact that the CbB/Sonar version is now code-signed - this is why it's slightly larger in size. 1 hour ago, minminmusic said: So...aside from the differences between the two drivers and the Comp/EQ/Plug-In buttons listed in my most recent post above (for some reason that post states it's waiting for approval), if in the Mackie driver I check "Exclude filter from Plug-Ins" it now displays the first effect in my FX bin but no access to the Comp/EQ (as expected?) But hitting the Plug-In button twice does not shift the focus of the displays over to the missing items. This behavior may not be the end of the world for me as I'm ultimately looking to hook up an additional controller (the Rocksolid Audio Micro 4k https://rocksolidaudioltd.com/products/micro-4k). If checking the Exclude Filters from Plug-Ins shuts off access to the Cakewalk ProChannel FX and I pre-insert a SSL style plugin that's been mapped for the Rock Solid Micro4k, wondering if hitting the Plug-In window now brings "Focus" to that first effect in the FX Bin and Micro4k, with it's own midi driver, now has control of that plug-in. They are backordered on the controller so can't really test a test but if I could find a way to do that that would be a huge plus in my workflow. The "Exclude Filters" checkbox was added by Azslow3 a few years back - he added support for the Pro Channel EQ and Compressor, which are normally not seen by the Mackie Control (because they're essentially in a different FX bin), so checking that disables that support. So yes, checking "Exclude Filters" then hitting the plugin button will show the first effect in the FX bin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 It's probably worth clarifying the "working independently" thing... Cakewalk's Mackie Control, Mackie Control XT and Mackie Control C4 all talk to each other. So I could have five surfaces set up: 2 x XT units, a main MCU unit, and 2 x C4. These would be set up as Mackie Control XT, Mackie Control XT, Mackie Control, Mackie Control C4 and Mackie Control C4. Anything I do on any of the surfaces is "known" by the others, so they're acting as if they're one big control surface. I can add as many additional surfaces to that group that I want by assigning them as one of those three control surface types. MMcL Mackie Control #1, MMcL Mackie Control XT #1 and MMcL Mackie Control C4 #1 work in exactly the same way, except they only talk to other "MMcL ... #1" surfaces. Likewise MMcL Mackie Control #2, MMcL Mackie Control XT #2 and MMcL Mackie Control C4 #2 work in exactly the same way, except they only talk to other "MMcL ... #2" surfaces, and so on. So you essentially have four groups of Mackie Control surfaces that can work independently of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 They were in two separate folders but I moved the MMcL's to the same folder as the MackieControl.ini It's set to the Mackie Control drive for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 2 minutes ago, minminmusic said: They were in two separate folders but I moved the MMcL's to the same folder as the MackieControl.ini It's set to the Mackie Control drive for now. You can't just move these DLL's - they're COM objects. They need to be unregistered first (while they're in the original folder), then re-registered in the new location. The MMcL uninstaller/installer will do this for you - but they need to be in the folders they were originally installed into, for the uninstall to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 Ok...gotcha. Will do that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 Uninstalled MMcL, redownloaded and reinstalled and made sure it's now saved to the same folder as the MackieController dll/ini files. Now it seems both are behaving the same BUT...both are missing the first few options that were available in Pic 1 above. Both now start at LLFreq and pressing EQ twice toggles it to the high frequencies parameters but it seems you can't access the options displayed in Pic 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 15 minutes ago, minminmusic said: Uninstalled MMcL, redownloaded and reinstalled and made sure it's now saved to the same folder as the MackieController dll/ini files. Now it seems both are behaving the same BUT...both are missing the first few options that were available in Pic 1 above. Both now start at LLFreq and pressing EQ twice toggles it to the high frequencies parameters but it seems you can't access the options displayed in Pic 1. It'll be picking up the parameter order from MackieControl.ini, so check that - maybe those parameters aren't listed (I've edited mine, so it'll be different). It should be listed under [ProChannel EQ]. Alternatively, use C4Mapper to check/edit it for you (you'll need to run it as Administrator for it to write back to MackieControl.ini). The reason the first two parameters were different was because it wasn't finding MackieControl.ini in the other directory, so it just presented the parameters in the order it presents them to Cakewalk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 So...from Pic 2 - This info below is what it's picking up in the displays? I'm guessing that the first entry corresponds to the display 1 in Pic 2? (LLFreq 79.6hz) and in total it technically should be taking up 32 display windows in the iCon p1-M/X. Hitting that EQ button sequentially should have them scrolling in groups of 16 until it completes all the VPot options? And I if Vpot 26, 24 and 25 were moved to the "front of the line" it should closer mimic Pic 1? I'm just looking to see if I got the missing options bumped to the beginning of this section would hitting EQ twice now display the accurately? At this stage I don't think I need to tweak the parameters...it's just the running order possibly? Mark...thank you so much for helping bringing clarity to this process. I'm sure there are a lot better things you could be doing on a Saturday then helping some schlub wade out into deeper waters lol. [ProChannel EQ] PluginType=1 NumVPots=32 VPot0=5,freq,0.2007 ; Band 1 Freq VPot1=10,freq,0.40 ; Band 2 Freq VPot2=14,freq,0.60 ; Band 3 Freq VPot3=18,freq,0.80 ; Band 4 Freq VPot4=6,spread,0.5 ; Band 1 Q VPot5=11,spread,0.5 ; Band 2 Q VPot6=15,spread,0.5 ; Band 3 Q VPot7=19,spread,0.5 ; Band 4 Q VPot8=4,boost/cut,0.5 ; Band 1 Gain VPot9=9,boost/cut,0.5 ; Band 2 Gain VPot10=13,boost/cut,0.5 ; Band 3 Gain VPot11=17,boost/cut,0.5 ; Band 4 Gain VPot12=3,switch ; Band 1 On/Off VPot13=8,switch ; Band 2 On/Off VPot14=12,switch ; Band 3 On/Off VPot15=16,switch ; Band 4 On/Off VPot16=7,switch ; Band 1 Low Shelf Enable VPot17=20,switch ; Band 4 Hi Shelf Enable VPot18=25,freq,0.1005 ; HP Freq VPot19=22,freq,0.90 ; LP Freq VPot20=26,boost/cut,0.144 ; HP Slope VPot21=23,boost/cut,0.144 ; LP Slope VPot22=24,switch ; HP On/Off VPot23=21,switch ; LP On/Off VPot24=1,pan,0,0.1 ; Style VPot25=2,switch ; Gloss VPot26=0,switch ; EQ Enable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 Wondering now...with the two Pics above...was Pic1 pulling that info from the Prochannel EQ and in Pic2...is that pulling it from Track EQ? Still wouldn't quite make sense because if I look at the ProChannel EQ and visually count the amount of clickable/movable options...I come up with 27 options. With the "Exclude filters from plug-ons" disabled, I get 22 displayed windows for EQ (not correct) and 8 for the Compressor (which seems correct and have no issues with.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 14 hours ago, minminmusic said: Wondering now...with the two Pics above...was Pic1 pulling that info from the Prochannel EQ and in Pic2...is that pulling it from Track EQ? Still wouldn't quite make sense because if I look at the ProChannel EQ and visually count the amount of clickable/movable options...I come up with 27 options. With the "Exclude filters from plug-ons" disabled, I get 22 displayed windows for EQ (not correct) and 8 for the Compressor (which seems correct and have no issues with.) Pic 1 was just presenting the parameters in order, as it couldn't find MackieControl.ini - take a look at my screenshot of C4 Mapper, and the parameter list on the bottom right. That's the order the parameters are being presented, and that's what you're seeing in Pic 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 Quote I see know...but he's another head/desk banging moment. So Pic 1, using MMcL (which wasn't installed correctly...since fixed) does not allow me to hit the EQ button twice to toggles the displays to reveal additional parameters but they are in the "correct" order listed as parameters in the C4 Mapper. Because it won't "scroll to the right" to see the rest of the parameters...I do not know if it's capturing them all and in the right order but have to assume. Pic 2, using the Mackie Control allows me to hit the EQ button twice to reveal additional parameters but a) not all of them and b) not in the same order listed as in the C4 Mapper. Is it ok to find this so confusing? In addition, I checked the mapping in C4 Mapper for the UAD SSL E plugin, ran both Luna and Reaper and inserted that on track one and the display order of the UA SSL parameters in the iCon P1-1M/X matched the order in C4 Mapper. On the P1-M/X, Luna paged between all parameters by hitting the Flip button and twisting the jog wheel. Luna displayed them as Page 1 of 3. Reaper accessed all the additional parameters by using the Track Left/Right buttons. Reaper displayed them as Page 2, Page 3. I ran the same test on CbB by "Excluding filters from plugins" and adding the UA SSL. They displayed in the same order as C4 Mapper but I could only access an additional 16 parameters by hitting the Plugin button twice and the displays on the second 16 displayed the values but not the actual parameter names. Hit the EQ button again and it flips back to displaying the first 16 correctly. When I regain a little energy I'll try and see if the latest Sonar is doing the same thing and trying some of these "additional" screen variations in the hope that one may work there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmcleod Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 The differences you're seeing between Mackie Control and MMcL Mackie Control could be down to maybe the MMcL version being an older version, or simply that the configuration in the dialog (under the Utilities menu) is subtly different. As far as the other behaviour, all I can say is every control surface that isn't an official Mackie Control (and especially those without a SONAR mode) has its quirks in MCU mode. In my office, I use an old Yamaha 01X (I removed the mLAN card and built a dongle that hardwires the control surface ports to the ports on the back) and a Mackie C4. The plugin support is actually pretty good on that, but it does have a different set of buttons than the MCU. What it does have though is an official SONAR mode, which means it's sending the correct combination of button presses for various modes. Even so, I find myself getting confused as so many buttons have more that one function (either by pressing them multiple times, or using a modifier button). The name/value display toggling is a common feature of many control surfaces, as is the single track + multiple params vs multiple tracks + single param toggle mode. ANY control surface that isn't an official MCU, unless its extremely basic, is going to be emulating multiple button presses, as they don't have the same buttons as the real MCU. The only possible exception is perhaps the largest Behringer X-Touch model, which seems to have all of the MCU buttons. Also, depending on what functionality they offer, they may have to store internal state (i.e. remembering which mode they think they're in, so that the correct combination of button presses can be sent out). So unless this exactly matches what Cakewalk/Sonar is expecting, there's going to be some weirdness. This is why MCU emulations should really have a SONAR mode. Sure, you can set Cakewalk's Mackie Control emulation to Cubase, but all that does is remap the buttons - it doesn't make Cakewalk/Sonar pretend to be Cubase. The one solution that will almost certainly work is @azslow3's AZController. I used it for a custom hardware controller I was building at one point. It can do pretty much anything, but be prepared for a steep learning curve. To be honest though, I wouldn't get hung up on the slight differences - just pick the solution that works best for you and stick with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minminmusic Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 Quote I'm starting to lean towards what you're saying and maybe not pay attention to the "displays" IF I can get the following to work (because this is what I'm ultimately after.) I tried to record a video because if you see it visually I think it makes more sense...but even rushing through the description it was too long/big. In any event, iCon P1-M/X is communicating with CbB. I have two tracks and each has a UA SSL 4000E loaded. Hitting the EQ button brings up the SSL parameters in the displays. For the first 4 parameters I set them wildly different...and flipping between the SEL key in track 1 and 2 on the iCon toggles between the two SSL instances perfectly. So far...so good. If I know the CC values/channel of the displayed parameters...would it be possible through a third controller to mirror the same motion? Right now the only other controller I have is the Arturia Keylab 49. In it's midi software I can change the values being sent on the rotary knobs. If VPOT 1 and 2 on the iCon are CC 16 and 17 and I mirror those on the Keylab 49, is it possible to send that info almost like a MIDI THRU from the Keylab 49 to the iCon and into CbB, picked up by the SSL? My ultimately goal is to try and do that with this (https://rocksolidaudioltd.com/products/micro-4k) and get the iCon P1-M/X and the Rocksolid Micro4k to interact as "seamlessly" as I can. The Micro4k has a wrapper VST3 to make the mapping process "easier" but I don't know if that will make it work any easier. Wrapper aside, I'm certain MIDI values can be associated with each VPOT on the Micro4k and possibly setting up an AZSlow instance making it a "default" SSL Plug-In controller. As long as the same SSL plug-in is on each channel...if the MIDI information can be mirrored/MIDI Thru from the Micro4k to/thru to the iCon, in theory, this should work? Pic 1 - 2 Tracks in CbB - 2 SSL - Hit Plug-In button on iCon. Pic 2 - Hit SEL on Track 1 and it focuses on SSL 1 Pic 3 - Hit SEL on Track 2 and it focuses on SSL 2 Pic 4 - Arturia Keylab 49 - Reassigned MIDI values to mirror VPOTS 1 and 2 on the iCon. Pic 5 - Rocksolid Audio - Micro4k MIDI controller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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