Save Midi Learn parameters of a vsti

[Emanu3le85]

My idea is to map a simple synth like "Tal noisemaker" onto the Novation launch control and command it "live" even if its midi track is not selected or even if it is not displayed on the monitor, in reality I can do it with midi learn but at every closing the project the synth mapping is not remembered, I don't use ATC control because it is a bit complicated and because it only works if the vsti is displayed on the monitor, is there a way to save the midi learn parameters? Thanks

[John Vere]

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

[Emanu3le85]

4 hours ago, John Vere said:

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

I looked at the link but I don't think it's what I'm looking for, maybe you understood that I perform live, no, I meant to control the parameters of a vst instrument in real time by interfacing them with the Novation launch control, but at the end of each project every midi learn parameter is forgotten

[azslow3]

"MIDI learn" inside VST(i) is the thing of that VST(i). If you save the project, but the next time you load it the mapping is gone, that means the plug-in is not saving it. So you need to ask plug-in developers what is wrong, host (Cakewalk) has no influence on internal plug-in MIDI mappings.

ACT in general is the only option if internal mapping is not saved by plug-in. ACT is using "Parameters" exposed by plug-in, not sending any MIDI to the plug-in. ACT "Dynamic mapping" can be tricky in terms of "remembering" the mapping (configuration XML files can be "corrupted") and focusing plug-in (you don't need it on monitor, but you need select it and "lock" it, then you can close it, focus other plug-in, etc.).

An alternative approach is "Direct parameter control". But in your case it is available throw AZ Controller only (Cakewalk own ACT software use it exclusively for Mackie controllers). I must admit that peace of (my) software is not newcomers friendly (even so in practice, when you know what you should do, the mapping will take less then 10 seconds per control... The action list per control is "Rack <required synth> <parameter>" + Value (with default options for launch control), duplicate N times, MIDI learn and change the <parameter> in Rack action for each knob). The advantage over Dynamic Mapping (and MIDI learn inside plug-in) - you can control different parameters of different synthes/fxes at the same time.
 

[Emanu3le85]

49 minutes ago, azslow3 said:

"MIDI learn" inside VST(i) is the thing of that VST(i). If you save the project, but the next time you load it the mapping is gone, that means the plug-in is not saving it. So you need to ask plug-in developers what is wrong, host (Cakewalk) has no influence on internal plug-in MIDI mappings.

ACT in general is the only option if internal mapping is not saved by plug-in. ACT is using "Parameters" exposed by plug-in, not sending any MIDI to the plug-in. ACT "Dynamic mapping" can be tricky in terms of "remembering" the mapping (configuration XML files can be "corrupted") and focusing plug-in (you don't need it on monitor, but you need select it and "lock" it, then you can close it, focus other plug-in, etc.).

An alternative approach is "Direct parameter control". But in your case it is available throw AZ Controller only (Cakewalk own ACT software use it exclusively for Mackie controllers). I must admit that peace of (my) software is not newcomers friendly (even so in practice, when you know what you should do, the mapping will take less then 10 seconds per control... The action list per control is "Rack <required synth> <parameter>" + Value (with default options for launch control), duplicate N times, MIDI learn and change the <parameter> in Rack action for each knob). The advantage over Dynamic Mapping (and MIDI learn inside plug-in) - you can control different parameters of different synthes/fxes at the same time.
 

thanks for the clarification, as far as the synth rack is concerned the problem is that I don't have many knobs available to map a synth, it seemed that midi learn was the most logical method to controll an instrument, my problem is having full control and flexibility during the sound design phase, it is frustrating to play the keyboard with one hand and move the parameters with the mouse with the other, I would like to emulate a real synth, even if the problem of midi inputs would arise, because keyboard and midi controllers are independent inputs. maybe the Softube console 1 can do for me?

Edited June 27 by Emanu3le85

[azslow3]

Softube Console 1 is to control corresponding mixer strip.

For "instruments", there are just 2 DAW independent solutions. For both you run the instrument in a wrapper. One is AKAI VIP and another is NI Kontrol. Both work with combined devices (keyboard + controller).   AKAI VIP always was just "an attempt". NI Kontrol is well supported.

Long time ago there was Novation Automap (with controllers without keyboard), but that line is not continued.

All NI controllers use encoders,  for me suboptimal for synthes (no "real" feel). But obvious advantage they are always "in sync" with parameters, so you can switch between banks/synthes without problem. If you don't really want the keyboard, there is M32. Even so it has 32 small keys, it has small size and can be used just as  controller. They are almost optimal to control all NI plug-ins. Many third party plug-ins also have NKS support.

But if you are serious about using Cakewalk and controller, I recommend as first to give your Launch Control a try with AZ Controller. After following "Quick start" (5-10 minutes), you will be able to use "a hint" from my previous post and have your device controlling one particular synth (may be 20-30 minutes for you). You can also try "Startup preset" (there is Youtube step-by-step video), to try "ACT Dynamic mapping" (another 15-20 minutes). After that, you will probably have the answers on following questions:

• are you really going to use controllers?
• do you think encoders will work better then finite knobs for you?
• do you want spend time making good for you layouts/presets or prefer "ready to go" solutions?

And then you can start to think which other device to buy (or not...).

[Astraios]

I don't know if this helps, but you can also record all softsynth parameters (at once) into the instrument track (using the 'write' function). Then all the parameters of your synth are available in envelope tracks. That could be 300 pieces (or more). You can then assign fixed MIDI controllers or MIDI notes to these individual tracks using the sonar remote control option. If I'm not mistaken, the assignments will be retained the next time the project starts...

 

 

[Astraios]

Part-2  all Parameters

[Emanu3le85]

25 minutes ago, azslow3 said:

Softube Console 1 is to control corresponding mixer strip.

For "instruments", there are just 2 DAW independent solutions. For both you run the instrument in a wrapper. One is AKAI VIP and another is NI Kontrol. Both work with combined devices (keyboard + controller).   AKAI VIP always was just "an attempt". NI Kontrol is well supported.

Long time ago there was Novation Automap (with controllers without keyboard), but that line is not continued.

All NI controllers use encoders,  for me suboptimal for synthes (no "real" feel). But obvious advantage they are always "in sync" with parameters, so you can switch between banks/synthes without problem. If you don't really want the keyboard, there is M32. Even so it has 32 small keys, it has small size and can be used just as  controller. They are almost optimal to control all NI plug-ins. Many third party plug-ins also have NKS support.

But if you are serious about using Cakewalk and controller, I recommend as first to give your Launch Control a try with AZ Controller. After following "Quick start" (5-10 minutes), you will be able to use "a hint" from my previous post and have your device controlling one particular synth (may be 20-30 minutes for you). You can also try "Startup preset" (there is Youtube step-by-step video), to try "ACT Dynamic mapping" (another 15-20 minutes). After that, you will probably have the answers on following questions:

• are you really going to use controllers?
• do you think encoders will work better then finite knobs for you?
• do you want spend time making good for you layouts/presets or prefer "ready to go" solutions?

And then you can start to think which other device to buy (or not...).

very detailed, Yes, I am more intent on building something for my needs, my dream is to no longer use the touchpad or mouse, at least for the most creative needs. I see that there are many solutions, I will look at the solutions you gave me one by one and I will see which one I will be better with, thank you 

[Emanu3le85]

 

18 minutes ago, Astraios said:

I don't know if this helps, but you can also record all softsynth parameters (at once) into the instrument track (using the 'write' function). Then all the parameters of your synth are available in envelope tracks. That could be 300 pieces (or more). You can then assign fixed MIDI controllers or MIDI notes to these individual tracks using the sonar remote control option. If I'm not mistaken, the assignments will be retained the next time the project starts...

 

 

this is the method I have always used, I find it excellent for setting the initial values of a parameter but to interface an entire synth with it I find it not very dynamic, the solution I am looking for is only for the initial construction of a synth timbre, in which you need all the parameters immediately, when I have finished building the sound the track automations to manage the values are also fine

Edited June 27 by Emanu3le85

[Astraios]

I tried it again and the MIDI assignments remained intact for the Beatstep Pro Midi Controller even after a project restart. Hm, admittedly, this is certainly not the most convenient solution. I don't really understand exactly what you want to do - but I'm not much of a professional either. The AZ Controller may be able to do this for you...

[Astraios]

2 minutes ago, Astraios said:

I tried it again and the MIDI assignments remained intact for the Beatstep Pro Midi Controller even after a project restart. Hm, admittedly, this is certainly not the most convenient solution. I don't really understand exactly what you want to do - but I'm not much of a professional either. The AZ Controller may be able to do this for you...

FL Studio DAW they have this `last touched´ function, which is a very much more convinient and works so much faster

[Astraios]

  A fairly different method would be if you have a 12 inch Android tablet on which Spacedesk software is installed. Then you have the synth right in front of you and you can easily control it with your fingers.    www.spacedesk.net/de/

[Astraios]

12 minutes ago, Astraios said:

  A fairly different method would be if you have a 12 inch Android tablet on which Spacedesk software is installed. Then you have the synth right in front of you and you can easily control it with your fingers.    www.spacedesk.net/de/

And that also has the advantage that you know exactly which parameter you are controlling. The hardware MIDI controllers have the huge disadvantage that the switches, controls and buttons are not labeled and you have to have everything more or less in your head. If it gets extensive, you need several layers to operate everything. too complex for my needs       www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9vUMnX_T3Y

[Astraios]

I've done a clip about Spacedeck on my 12" Android Tablet controlling Spire Softsynth (Reveal), if you like to watch it... ?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol1vj1WMweU&t=4s

[Emanu3le85]

1 hour ago, Astraios said:

And that also has the advantage that you know exactly which parameter you are controlling. The hardware MIDI controllers have the huge disadvantage that the switches, controls and buttons are not labeled and you have to have everything more or less in your head. If it gets extensive, you need several layers to operate everything. too complex for my needs       www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9vUMnX_T3Y

to explain myself better, when I build a sound there are 3 phases

1- timbre construction (when I open a new synth with init patch)

2 - set the initial values of some parameters (no automation envelopes just a long static line) as a filter or key follow via track automations

3 - automate the envelopes of the chosen parameters whose initial values I have previously set

my post refers to phase 1 in which I don't need automations but simply all the synth parameters that can be managed immediately with a dedicated midi controller for that VST, as if I had an hardware synth, I make electronic music and use a lot of synths and I like to build the sound myself, It's really frustrating to build sounds with the mouse for all the sounds I use

[azslow3]

12 hours ago, Astraios said:

FL Studio DAW they have this `last touched´ function, which is a very much more convinient and works so much faster

https://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,206.0.html

4 hours ago, Astraios said:

And that also has the advantage that you know exactly which parameter you are controlling. The hardware MIDI controllers have the huge disadvantage that the switches, controls and buttons are not labeled and you have to have everything more or less in your head. If it gets extensive, you need several layers to operate everything. too complex for my needs       www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9vUMnX_T3Y

Some controllers show assigned parameters. NI Sxx controllers have displays for that (M32 has tiny display... it also shows current parameter and value, but it is hard to see). Mackie (and compatible) devices have per control displays.

And for all controllers you may have a separate window which shows the layout (at least with "Cakewalk ACT" and AZ Controller). So if you have space on monitor (or a dedicated monitor.... or in case of AZ Controller a phone/tablet with TouchOSC or other OSC client installed...), you can have current "labels" for hardware controls.

[Emanu3le85]

3 hours ago, azslow3 said:

https://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,206.0.html

Some controllers show assigned parameters. NI Sxx controllers have displays for that (M32 has tiny display... it also shows current parameter and value, but it is hard to see). Mackie (and compatible) devices have per control displays.

And for all controllers you may have a separate window which shows the layout (at least with "Cakewalk ACT" and AZ Controller). So if you have space on monitor (or a dedicated monitor.... or in case of AZ Controller a phone/tablet with TouchOSC or other OSC client installed...), you can have current "labels" for hardware controls.

I haven't yet fully understood the AZ controller, I'll try to understand better

[Astraios]

There is also a plugin called "Blue Cat's Remote Control" that might ease your needs... Blue Cat's Remote Control is a plug-in which lets you control and monitor in real time several MIDI controllable plug-ins or devices from a single customizable user interface: https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products... 

[azslow3]

4 hours ago, Astraios said:

There is also a plugin called "Blue Cat's Remote Control" that might ease your needs... Blue Cat's Remote Control is a plug-in which lets you control and monitor in real time several MIDI controllable plug-ins or devices from a single customizable user interface: https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products... 

It assumes synth MIDI learning is working, and in OP the problem  it does NOT work.  In addition it introduce yet another mapping (note "I don't use ACT control because it is a bit complicated" in the OP) and it assumes the DAW has good and stable working MIDI routing (Cakewalk tend to mess it).
 

On 6/28/2024 at 11:48 AM, Astraios said:

And that also has the advantage that you know exactly which parameter you are controlling. The hardware MIDI controllers have the huge disadvantage that the switches, controls and buttons are not labeled and you have to have everything more or less in your head. If it gets extensive, you need several layers to operate everything. too complex for my needs       www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9vUMnX_T3Y

BC Remote Control has mentioned by you disadvantage...

Finally, this plug-in cost almost the same as a DAW which can do way more tricks with controlling on its own and in more easy to follow way (since it can use MIDI and directly parameters, including modulating (also by audio)). With third party extensions or scripts it is possible to do even more crazy things there. ?

Sorry, I don't say BC plugin is bad or will not work with Cakewalk, I just claim it is not going to help with discussed topic.

[Astraios]

 

After spending some time with the BlueCat Remote Control, I am very convinced of this plugin. True, it's a bit overpriced. Here is a YT clip of me about Sonar, Nexus 4 and the BC Remote Control...

Blue Cats Remote Control on Sonar DAW control Nexus 4 Synth by reFX