Sonar no longer "Coming Soon"

[Mr No Name]

why don't everyone chip in a few quid and we'll take over cakewalk how it used to be, buy bandlab out ?  it could be called

Cakewalk by Cakewalk  Cbc.

 

[Soundwise]

In other words, it's Gibson that owes us a lifetime of cakewalk, whatever that means.

[Larry Shelby]

29 minutes ago, Soundwise said:

In other words, it's Gibson that owes us a lifetime of cakewalk, whatever that means.

Well no...they never specified "who's" lifetime.  Gibson was referring to Cakewalk's lifetime...not ours!
We were dumb enough to believe that it was "ours"!

[PavlovsCat]

2 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

and they never will. 

They can't sell you anything because that company doesn't exist anymore. Bandlab is a different company that purchased SOME OF THE CAKEWALK ASSETS from Gibson. 

[PavlovsCat]

21 minutes ago, cclarry said:

Well no...they never specified "who's" lifetime.  Gibson was referring to Cakewalk's lifetime...not ours!
We were dumb enough to believe that it was "ours"!

Yep, those contracts always pertain to the life of the company you made the contract with, and they do specify that in the agreement. Always. But software companies that do lifetime deals are commonly not in good financial condition, they're mostly trying to raise cash fast when they can't get it from investors or banks.  

[Magic Russ]

It's not like anyone is going to add anything new to the conversation regarding lifetime updates and there isn't anything to be gained.

I'd rather talk about where Sonar is going.  Knowing the industry, it is likely that they are just behind where they want the product to be.   I mean, I work with people who sometimes take weeks to even tell you what the file name is that we need to be processing.

I'd also much rather believe that Sonar "not coming soon" is due to the real world's constant mockery of deadlines and business metrics.  Otherwise what's the explanation? 

[Carlos Iglesias]

It's funny how man, in this case Sonar or Cakewalk can stumble on the same stone twice. They come back with a model that almost sunk them, but they will know, it is their company. I'm not going to pay for subscriptions, let those who like that business model enjoy it.

[Jim Roseberry]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned (regarding Cakewalk when owned by Gibson):

Gibson got into numerous side-businesses (purchasing companies where they had no background/expertise).

Gibson was also making bad business decisions... like putting robotic-tuners on a classic "heritage" guitar (Les Paul Standard).

Most folks don't buy a Les Paul looking for ground-breaking new features.  They buy a Les Paul... wanting a traditional Les Paul sound/experience.

 

Gibson was hemorrhaging money... and on the brink of bankruptcy.

To survive, they decided to cut anything that wasn't bringing in significant profit.

Point being... the issue wasn't, "Cakewalk went out of business because they were doing a poor job or made poor decisions."

The mother company turned off the lights... and let everyone go.

Similar to what Creative Labs did when they purchased Emulator.

 

If you're upset about Sonar Platinum Lifetime Updates (I purchased that myself), your anger/disgust should be directed toward Gibson.

 

I understand that some folks don't like subscriptions.  I'm not crazy about them... but have a few.

For a company, the subscription model is a more predictable stream of revenue.

Perpetual licenses... with a paid update every year or two is a lot more difficult to gauge/predict/manage.

 

Moving into the future, it's important for Cakewalk to be monetized. 

That ensures the rest of the industry takes it seriously (tests for compatibility, officially supported by 3rd-party plugin vendors, etc).

 

Personally, I would like to see more of a hard release.

That said... I'm glad to see Cakewalk Sonar available... and being further developed.

In today's economy, $150/year isn't too bad.

If you use the product and stay up-to-date for a decade, you're out $1500.

Maybe BandLab could offer a perpetual license after a particular subscription period.

ie: After a year... you have a perpetual license for that current version. 

 

 

Edited June 3 by Jim Roseberry

[Sergio]

I'd just be glad if Bandlab give us 'Lifetimers' at least a good discount on the commercial release (like other companies like Steinberg did back them, for instance).

[Jim Roseberry]

Another perspective:

 

Say you bought the property of a struggling Auto Collision Repair business; all the tools and the property/building... but not the actual business/clientele.

Let's say the previous company offered free lifetime collision repair to all their customers.

Should you (the new property owner) be expected to take over the debt, warranty, and lifetime collision responsibilities of the failing business?

I think the distinction is that "you" bought the property, not the actual full business.

 

It's not exactly a 1:1 comparison... as Cakewalk Sonar is software (not a physical product)... but I think it makes the point.

 

Perhaps BandLab could offer a discount (or other incentive/s) for Lifetime license holders.  That would help bridge-the-gap.

 

[GroverKen]

What I really don’t want is to pay $14.95 a month or $149.95 per annum for Sonar along with Next, Fan Reach, Distribution, Profile Boost and all the other add-ons. I just want Sonar on it’s own - pure and simple.

Yes, I did purchase the Lifetime Updates but prior to that I was buying SPLAT at each version release and was perfectly happy. So - please don’t just bundle everything together and expect me to jump for joy with that scenario whilst wondering what happens with the free version if I decide not to go for the Full Monty.

[Soundwise]

I think Bandlab/Cakewalk should do whatever it takes to keep the product up to date and relevant, as well as stay in the business.

[CSistine]

21 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Say you bought the property of a struggling Auto Collision Repair business; all the tools and the property/building... but not the actual business/clientele.

Let's say the previous company offered free lifetime collision repair to all their customers.

Should you (the new property owner) be expected to take over the debt, warranty, and lifetime collision responsibilities of the failing business?

I think the distinction is that "you" bought the property, not the actual full business.

IMO your comparison lacks the real point!

It was more like say you bought the name, whole production, parts and construction design of a automotive company and even a part of the employees! So almost everything, except the liabilities! This is what makes people questioning.

But for me it is more important that I've lost faith in the people around Cakewalk, than the bitter pill of the lifetime purchase! IMO there were some flam statements and false impressions sowed on CbB, that are not true anymore. It reminds me of the practice of the banks with payment. In the 80s they wanted you to pay all electronically, so it was free. Then when everybody did use it and was dependent on it, it was suddenly costly!

 

[Bapu]

28 minutes ago, CSistine said:

It was more like say you bought the name, whole production, parts and construction design of a automotive company and even a part of the employees! So almost everything, except the liabilities! This is what makes people questioning.

Why? BandLab bought the assets (and IIRC not all assets and thus not every Gibson/Cakewalk add on is available in CbB). They did not buy the company (and thus did not assume the debt/liabilities/company promises).

That is just sooooooooo simple to digest, but in today's society many people, IMO, look for "conspiracy" or "injustice" in things that are just there upon close rational examination.

I too once thought I read CbB would be free forever. I was proved wrong. That was never stated (the forever part). 

I bought Gibson's Lifetime plan. I have zero regrets for that. I don't feel burnt, betrayed or broken up about it. I made that choice and Gibson made their choice. End of.

 

[PavlovsCat]

3 hours ago, CSistine said:

IMO your comparison lacks the real point!

It was more like say you bought the name, whole production, parts and construction design of a automotive company and even a part of the employees! So almost everything, except the liabilities! This is what makes people questioning.

To Jim's point,  Cakewalk was already dissolved by Gibson by the time Bandlab bought its intellectual property.  It truly was the equivalent of a fire sale with Gibson selling off the assets of the company it once owned but dissolved. 

I get that you and some others are upset, and I'm not an apologist for Bandlab, I'm just a businessperson explaining the fundamentals of business applied to this situation. I'm not a fan of the software subscription model and likely will be using Studio One Pro over Sonar if Bandlab chooses to go subscription only. But the small group of people wrongly -- and repeatedly after given basic information-- is, IMO something the community should care to correct. I think Jim Roseberry made some excellent points, especially,  the point that if you're going to be angry with any party after all of these years (which I think it's time to let go), the one party you could make the only somewhat -- but not really--reasonable case to be angry at is Gibson for shutting down Cakewalk and selling its assets nearly a decade ago. 

If you're this angry after so many years, and you state you've lost faith in the new owners of the Sonar software, why keep posting angry and upset with those doing their best to explain the situation accurately? Consider that Jim bought the same lifetime deal and took the time to explain things to you in a very thoughtful manner and you insulted him. I get that you're upset. But the reality of the situation is, your offer was with a company Gibson owned and dissolved.  If you're going to continue being upset over this for the next decade, that's the party to blame.  But even more, what's the point? And it would make more sense to vent at Gibson, not the company that bought some of the Cakewalk assets. I think it's extremely unlikely that Bandlab would make a special offer for lifetime deal recipients.  I don't think that's a reasonable expectation a fairninded person could have. In other words,  after nearly a decade since the  Cakewalk division of Gibson was dissolved, its time to realize that the end of that company's lifetime was the end of the lifetime contract,  just as it states in that contract, BTW. 

Edited June 3 by PavlovsCat

[Jim Roseberry]

3 minutes ago, CSistine said:

IMO your comparison lacks the real point!

It was more like say you bought the name, whole production, parts and construction design of a automotive company and even a part of the employees! So almost everything, except the liabilities! This is what makes people questioning.

I'm not sure how the comparison lacks the real point?  ?‍♂️

If you go to an auction and buy a company's property (tools/land/building)... but you don't actually buy the business (including clientele), you are in no way responsible for said failed business.  It's not legally the same company.  ie: The Federal Tax ID would not be the same.  The LLC would not be the same.  The failed company's financial load/debt would not be incurred.

 

I get that you feel "gypped" out of the Lifetime License.  Many of us feel that way.  

But it's not BandLab (or development employees) who gypped you (us)... it's Gibson.

 

I can certainly understand feeling "gun-shy" about the future.  There are no guarantees.  All you can do is more forward.

 

I'm glad to see Noel, Morten, and other longtime Cakewalk employees back... and further developing Sonar.

 

 

[X-53mph]

54 minutes ago, Soundwise said:

I think Bandlab/Cakewalk should do whatever it takes to keep the product up to date and relevant, as well as stay in the business.

I like your use of relevant.

Perhaps what we should be asking is, is Cakewalk relevant in the modern music market?  Don't get me wrong, I have loved using Cakewalk over the years and made some music on it that I'm really proud of....but I'm part of the disappearing market for Cakewalk....the question for Cakewalk should be, how do they cater for the next generation of music makers?

If, at one time, the aim of DAWs was to compete with the likes of Pro Tools for market dominance...well, I'd say those days are coming to a close. The music industry may no longer be made up of studios sharing projects across the world. The battle of the DAWs seems to have become a battle to keep existing client bases and to squeeze those existing customers for pennies by offering small changes and alterations over long stretched out periods of time.  CbB has been doing this for free over the last few years (all praise to them) but it isn't a good business model. So whatever the future of Cakewalk is, it needs to address the question....how can it capture the upcoming music makers, and not just rely on the existing (and soon to be no-longer existing) users.

That's the hard mathematics of it.

Then again. Maybe Noel just wants to retire and get out of the game. Who knows?

[Magic Russ]

The thing I am curious, that a lot of people seem to have overlooked, is that Bandlab still doesn't have a pricing plan in place.  I mean, they bought the product 7 years ago, have been developing it for all that time, but still haven't figured out how they are going to monetize it?   Am I the only one that finds that odd?

[Jacques Boileau]

13 minutes ago, Magic Russ said:

The thing I am curious, that a lot of people seem to have overlooked, is that Bandlab still doesn't have a pricing plan in place.  I mean, they bought the product 7 years ago, have been developing it for all that time, but still haven't figured out how they are going to monetize it?   Am I the only one that finds that odd?

We should not assume that because there are no plan revealed that there is no plan.

[Starship Krupa]

9 hours ago, CSistine said:

After the Gibson debacle and this now they have exhausted my confidence!

Providing a supported and regularly updated and feature upgraded version at no cost for 6 years has exhausted your confidence? In what?

10 hours ago, GroverKen said:

they could pull the plug on the free version. I know everyone says that they wouldn’t do that in the short term but it happened before with my lifetime Sonar purchase and I vowed not to let that happen again.

Exactly what happened with your lifetime SONAR purchase? Everyone else I know of, the software continued to function just as it had when they purchased the license, and then later on, the program was picked up by a more stable deep pockets corporation who issued a version that was 100% compatible, free to use, and continually improved upon for over 5 years.

Both Gibson and then later the new company have been diligent about keeping the legacy SONAR download and licensing servers functional since the old company ceased to exist. The new company has even spent programming resources to update both the servers and the Command Center to ensure that people who purchased SONAR licenses will be able to keep using it (despite it effectively being a competitor to their own version).

I spent years in the software industry, and there's nothing in this scenario that would erode my trust in BandLab. Since I've been paying attention, the one misstep I've seen them make is announcing Cakewalk Sonar and Next too early. This mistake has so far not impacted my day to day use of the program. Sonar is dropping the Theme Editor, a favorite feature of mine, but in place of it, the new UI is shaping up pretty well.

10 hours ago, GroverKen said:

maybe I should start looking elsewhere now to prepare for what might be coming.

Yes, this is a good idea. Anything can happen with a software (or any other) company, as witnessed with Gibson dismantling Cakewalk, Inc. on its 30th anniversary. You have firsthand experience with this.

Always have a backup plan. Especially if you use the software to earn a living. There are multiple quite good DAW's with similar feature sets to Sonar's. Licensing starts at "free" and goes up from there. My recommendations for DAW's that would have the easiest learning curves for longtime Cakewalkers would be Mixcraft and Studio One Artist. There are also other options in the $100 and under price range. Heck, even a perpetual license for Studio One Pro is now under $200, and with that they toss in a year of their top tier subscription bundle.

7 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

when a company offers a lifetime deal -- which is not a sustainable business model for nearly any software company, especially for a flagship product -- it is often seen, correctly, as a red flag that the company may not be in very good financial condition. Small upstart software companies that have trouble getting funding will use this model, but the percentage of them that go bankrupt within a few years after that is pretty high. 

Once I would have agreed with most of what you say here, and maybe I still do, but then Image Line and MeldaProduction had to go and mess up my theories by flourishing.?

Of course, wide adoption doesn't necessarily mean that the company isn't going broke getting it, but in this case I'm just going to throw up my hands and admit that the owners of Image Line and MeldaProduction (same, actually, for a while now) know many things that I don't.

What would I do if MeldaProduction went casters-up tomorrow? I would continue to be happy using their products as they are now. It's not as if they need to add more features.

9 hours ago, Mr No Name said:

I would say imo that they want people on a subscription model, it is more profitable.

Finally, someone posts something original! I do hope that you intend to go into more depth about this.

All we need to make this topic complete is for someone to randomly mention that REAPER just got another dot release and that it's still only $60 for personal use and that you can even use it for free, and then for someone else to point out that you can't actually use REAPER for free unless you want to violate the license agreement, then yet another person to mention that they tried Studio One at the time of the Gibson debacle and never looked back.

(BTW is "looking back" a common practice when switching software programs? People who change primary DAW's often mention that once they switched, they never "looked back," as if that's notable.)