Does Steinberg (Cubase) hears the drumbeat?

[Steev]

On 3/28/2024 at 2:53 AM, Resonant Serpent said:

And, this is why I'm interested in the current development. There was a time when Cakewalk was ahead of everyone else when it came to just about everything. Looking forward to what they bring to the table in the future.

Cakewalk is STILL ahead of everyone else! Way, way, WAY ahead of everything else and have managed to stay there since SONAR was released. I know, I was there, and when SONAR 4 Producer was released, I pretty much shut down my Mac ProTools rig because I could FINALLY do everything I wanted to do in one DAW on one computer running Windows 2k. Up until then I used Cakewalk for MIDI composing/editing and ACID Pro for loop composing ProTools for audio recording and synced both computers together with MIDI MTC protocol to interface Windows to Apple to send MIDI/ACID loop sequences to the Mac & record them to audio tracks in ProTools where I started doing the FUN part. Lay'in down the JAMS with vocals and guitar tracks. ? SONAR 4 not only supported the BEST most advanced MIDI editing/sequencing I had ever tried, it supported ACID™ Loop technology, I no longer needed to use ProTools or ACID Pro, but I still had to use Sonic Foundry's Sound Forge Pro to "make" my own ACID Loops. 

And when I got enough of them together to fill a CD's worth of "Loop Packs", as an ACIDplanet.com ProZone member, Sony would release my Loop Packs & give me 49% of the take. But those days are over.  And while I found ACID Loop™ technology was a rock the world game changer, simply by giving users the ability to treat and manipulate audio clips as if they were MIDI sequences, or as Cakewalk called them "Groove Clips", what really impressed me the most about ACID software was it ability to faithfully and reliably record audio tracks from beginning to end without locking up or dropping out on my Windows 98SE mid grade Compaq laptop. I could only record one track at a time, but Cakewalk Pro Audio couldn't do that on my much bigger more powerful full tower custom built workstation. But, as it turned out years later, that wasn't Cakewalk's fault, It was Intel's Pentium chips could cut the mustard, but AMD Athlon's could & their Phenom CPU could ROCK IT LIKE A HURRICANE. A fact I learned almost by accident, as an early computer builder, when I decided to try out AMD configs for my next build, simply because they cost only 1/2 as much to build as would Intel configs. and clearly had more brute horsepower & muscle than any Windows or Apple computer I had experienced to date. And just like Cakewalk, I have found AMD still does today, as my aging AMD FX8370 STILL clearly manages to compete and hold it's own with today's Intel i9's. The only disadvantage, if ya even want to call it that, is the AMD FX series CPU's aren't supported with Win 11. But that doesn't bother me yet, because I don't really like Win 11, and I LOVE Win 10 so I'm good to at least another year, and maybe for a while longer.

However, I'm getting ahead of the point, looking at it from the brighter side of 2018, right around the same time my FX series CPU became downgraded by AMD Rysen tech, the plug got pulled at ACIDplanet.com, Bandlab appropriated Cakewalk from Gibson and graciously "pointed me to this new and improved Forum and invited me to check out & join Bandlab.com. If I wanted to, there was no pressure to, they would still let me use CbB for FREE, and I was still free to continue to check out Presonus Studio ONE to replace a no longer supported SPLAT. However, there was no need to. Bandlab continued to provide EXCELLANT support for CbB, and I can't help but feel, truly & honestly feel that Bandlab has taken Bandlab.com REALLY stepped up the game of publishing & sharing to a universe that FAR EXCEEDS any universe that ACIDplanet.com ever could or would orbit in. And not only does Bandlab let me keep 100% of profits from anything I may sell, Bandlab offers free Album authoring from .mp3 to .wav, Mastering, and downloads can be distributed directly from Bandlab. And Bandlab Studio/Mix Editor is MIND BLOWING, SHOCKINGLY POWERFUL! ??? Not only did I not expect to live long enough to see the day that this could even happen, I find it quite stunning that it is in fact even possible. In fact, I am so grateful for Bandlab's continued support and innovations, I began to feel guilty for freely accepting it for so long I gladly joined and signed up paid membership just to give something back in return, and ended up getting EVEN MORE GOODIES AND SERVICES making my workflow & life SO MUCH EASIER for a REDICULOUSLY LOW PRICE!

 I would like to point out that I found Studio ONE to be alright, as in good and or OK, it. I wouldn't consider it lovable although it is a very reasonably priced DAW,... BUT it is nowhere near as stable, advanced, OR as reasonably priced as CbB. S-ONE also kinda innovative, but not as forward thinking as it 'can' do anything that SONAR ' can't' already do, just does it differently. What I didn't like about it at all is it's lack of support for Mackie MCU protochol, it only supported HUI, which knocks out the Master Buss Fader and renders it useless on my Behringer X-Touch DAW controller. ?

S-ONE'S sound engine is rather harsh and tinny for monitoring with & thru both of my Focusrite & Universal Audio interfaces compared to SONAR/CbB's Double Precision x64 sound engine. Please understand that I am referring to actively "monitoring" with headcans during recording sessions, not a mixdown of the finished Mixing Session which I would use near field monitors, I personally found S-ONE  offensive in a way that I can't quite put my finger on and as such causes early ear fatigue.  Even at low volumes with closed back headcans like the very popular Sony 7506's & Sennheiser 280 Pro's which are DESIGNED for long periods of studio recording and tracking at any volume.. Will a Presonus audio interface rectify this annoying condition? I don't know, but I doubt it and I WON'T be stepping down or away from my Focusrite & Universal Audio interfaces to find out.. ? They maybe gett'in on in years, but they DANG SHER ain't BROKEN.

SONAR/CbB's Double Precision x64 sound engine was the first & ONLY x64 sound engine on WINDOWS computers that runs in the host, providing x64 processing power to a DAW running on an x32 OS, and sounds JUST as RICH & as GOOD as the rock-solid #1 Industry Standard ProTools, and Sound Forge Pro, which, does scores more than just make ACID Loops, combined with Ozone is still my #1 Mastering suite of choice fo mastering everything from skinny 'lil .wma, .mp3, up to 7.2 surround sound mixes and EVERYTHING in between. Only other sound editor I've ever found that can compete with Sound Forge Pro is BIAS PEAK which requires a Mac to run on.

[John Vere]

I have been demoing about 10 top DAW’s. Sonar blows them all away. Trust me. Each DAW might do a few things better or different but not one of those has the features Sonar has.
And don’t forget that they are not finished with building it! In 2 years I bet it will have some long awaited features added like chord track, sample player etc. 

Im most definitely purchasing it when made available. 

[Terry Kelley]

I am a huge Cakewalk fan but the competition is just that - competitive. I’ve spent the last month learning a different DAW and it can do everything Cakewalk can and then some. It just looks different. If BL comes out with a standalone price  for a perpetual license (and not a standalone subscription) I can easily switch back and carry on. Cakewalk does have a nice UI.
 

I think the top of the heap is shared with the competition. 

Edited April 4 by Terry Kelley

[njm255]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

I have been demoing about 10 top DAW’s. Sonar blows them all away. Trust me. Each DAW might do a few things better or different but not one of those has the features Sonar has.
And don’t forget that they are not finished with building it! In 2 years I bet it will have some long awaited features added like chord track, sample player etc. 

Im most definitely purchasing it when made available. 

Not trying to argue, just curious. I see a lot of people say that "their DAW" is so much better than the others and I'm curious what features Sonar has that are not commonly available in others. I've been dabbling in Cubase and haven't found anything particularly better or worse than Sonar, just different, but everybody claims one is better than the other.

[Misha]

45 minutes ago, njm255 said:

I'm curious what features Sonar has that are not commonly available in others.

To me, it's very flexible UI, where you can disable all unnecessary bologna. The only DAW (besides mobiles like Cubasis and N-Track) that  truly works with touchscreens.  Extremely smooth workflow  with take lanes /take lane  clips when tracking. Not invasive> pushing paid content (I hope it stays that way).  Very natural track viewing management: resizing vertically, horizontally independent of others. Bitwig and Mixcraft which are closest in that respect in my view are still miles away.

Bunch of others, these are just from the top.

P.S. Ohh yes, one of the best musical community forums. If I get stuck, I usually get help within hours if not less (Thank you!!!)

[John Vere]

3 hours ago, njm255 said:

Not trying to argue, just curious. I see a lot of people say that "their DAW" is so much better than the others and I'm curious what features Sonar has that are not commonly available in others. I've been dabbling in Cubase and haven't found anything particularly better or worse than Sonar, just different, but everybody claims one is better than the other.

Example for me two that are very important Smart tool. And tempo map created by a simple drag and drop to timeline.
 Actually the whole of  Sonars PRV I think is one of the best. I didn’t see one that had the built in track selection inspector which also allows layers as well as soloing muting of midi and audio tracks. 
I think the people who find no difference are just people who don’t use all of Cakewalk/ Sonars features. Fine.
The smart tool alone is a deal breaker for me. 
 

It totally depends on your personal workflow. 
Some of the DAWs I tried you can see would be way better than Sonar if you are using only loops as example. 
Some DAWS have much better tools for manipulation and randomly changing stuff around for creative composing. 
As a musician who can play a wide variety of instruments and sing I need totally different tools than people who are just experimenting with sound. Modern DAW’s are mostly aimed at non musicians. 
Cakewalk/ Sonar has just about everything to record and more importantly edit midi and audio. This is what I found lacking in most of the others. 

Edited April 4 by John Vere

[Misha]

Seems S1 is also listening to the ground.... Tempting.

C'mon BL. 10+ month is not "coming soon". Child is born in less time. Time to roll out those perpetual licenses. We saw the goods, we want them. No falling asleep. Your competitors are pretty much awake and alert  

[Steev]

On 4/25/2024 at 9:07 PM, Misha said:

Seems S1 is also listening to the ground.... Tempting.

C'mon BL. 10+ month is not "coming soon". Child is born in less time. Time to roll out those perpetual licenses. We saw the goods, we want them. No falling asleep. Your competitors are pretty much awake and alert  

Patience DAW Hoppa...?I was considering Studio One back when Gibson closed the doors on SONAR. I tried it, it was okay, not as innovative as SONAR, but kinda okay none the less.

 What I really didn't like that stopped me in my tracks was the sound engine was tiny and harsh compared to SONAR because it fatigued my ears after about an hour recording with my tried, true and trusty SONY 7506's Studio Monitor head cans. It wasn't the head cans because they sounded the same working with SONAR, Reason, & Pro Tools, never mind the 'learning curve' of trying to navigate around a new DAW that takes precious and frustrating time away from recording and actually 'focusing' on making music, and NO DAW can rival the power, stability, and innovation of Cakewalk at any price point.

So be patient DAW Hoppa... I've always found it to be true that the absolute BEST DAW OUT THERE for you, is the DAW you are most familiar with.

No wine shall be served before its time.. Be a tad less petulant and a wee bit more careful of what you wish for, because you will have the honor & privilege of paying for what you now receive for free SOON ENOUGH! ?

[Misha]

Steev, 

Ohh, I am patient. (a user since late 90s) Been especially patient last 10 month since Cakewalk death sentence was announced and coming "soon" wording was stapled      I am not worried about licensing, as different options were mentioned to be available. In my view delay and   unnecessary secrecy  of release simply frustrates people. Also seems BandLab doesn't move fast enough to capture DAW audience it needs, while others do. 

P.S. If BL offered similar deal to Studio1, I would be first in line.  In a sense I am glad that S1 done this promotion. Hopefully it will ring some bells to speed up release of perpetual Sonar licenses.

[Cecelius2]

I have deliberately stayed out of this discussion about the new Sonar release for months, but now I at least want to add my encouragement that a non-subscription version will be released soon.   Why?

Because this very month I updated my Cubase 13 pro, & Studio One 6.6 Hybrid+  & Mixbus 10 Pro (all of them non-subscription versions).  And I am using these other DAWS more and more and more.  However, I have used  Cakewalk DAWs since 1994 (Dos 3.0)  and have purchased every version of "Sonar" products for the last 30 years.  To be clear Cakewalk has always been my primary DAW.  The latest free CnB is still my "go to", my Primary DAW that I always load first to try out new plugins and work on music ideas. 

I really want to continue to use the latest version Sonar, but all of my DAWS are non-subscription.  I will definitely purchase the new Sonar when the non-subscription version is offered.  I wish I could purchase now, but it is not yet available.  (Please Bandlab--hurry the release).

C2

 

[Heath Row]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:07 AM, Misha said:

Seems S1 is also listening to the ground.... Tempting.

C'mon BL. 10+ month is not "coming soon". Child is born in less time. Time to roll out those perpetual licenses. We saw the goods, we want them. No falling asleep. Your competitors are pretty much awake and alert  

 

23 hours ago, Misha said:

Steev, 

Ohh, I am patient. (a user since late 90s) Been especially patient last 10 month since Cakewalk death sentence was announced and coming "soon" wording was stapled      I am not worried about licensing, as different options were mentioned to be available. In my view delay and   unnecessary secrecy  of release simply frustrates people. Also seems BandLab doesn't move fast enough to capture DAW audience it needs, while others do. 

P.S. If BL offered similar deal to Studio1, I would be first in line.  In a sense I am glad that S1 done this promotion. Hopefully it will ring some bells to speed up release of perpetual Sonar licenses.

Just in case you are not aware, these Perpetual licenses with the hybrid thing are what they call 'non upgradable' perpetual licenses, whatever version Studio One is on when you complete your year/12 months subscription, is what your perpetual version will stay at, of course if you keep your subscription rolling your perpetual license will roll along with it.

PreSonus/Studio One also has the regular perpetual license available for purchase, which is what I have had since I jumped ship from SONAR Platinum in 2015.  

[Misha]

Heath Row,

So the next upgrade will cost to you another yearly subscription. Not cheap, but fair if they have something to show for it. 

If Sonar will be priced similarly, I will gladly get it, and for example if next year they will come up with a clever Chord Track, I will upgrade again. And so on.

 

Edited April 30 by Misha

[Heath Row]

I don't pay Subscription, I'm on a perpetual license, if things go as they have done it's roughly 2 years give or take between major versions, like 5 to 6, 6 to 7 etc, so you are only paying every 2 or so years, give or take, all other updates between that are free.  I'm happy with the cost, and for what I get for the money I pay.

Edited April 30 by Heath Row

[ptheisen]

2 hours ago, Heath Row said:

 

Just in case you are not aware, these Perpetual licenses with the hybrid thing are what they call 'non upgradable' perpetual licenses, whatever version Studio One is on when you complete your year/12 months subscription, is what your perpetual version will stay at, of course if you keep your subscription rolling your perpetual license will roll along with it.

Perhaps a more accurate term would be 'non-updatable' instead of 'non-upgradable'. Here is what the PreSonus website Hybrid Q & A says (the bolding is mine):

Will I get bug fix updates to my version of Studio One Pro after my Studio One+ Hybrid subscription has expired?

All minor “point-point” or “sub-point” maintenance updates (X.X.1, X.X.2, etc.) will be available to you until the next major "point" release (Ex. X.1, X.2, X.5, etc.). If you are on version X.1 when your Hybrid subscription expires, you will be eligible for point-point releases X.1.1, X.1.2, etc. Your non-updating Pro license will not be eligible for a free update to version X.2. You can get access to the latest major point release by purchasing a Studio One+ Monthly plan, renewing your Studio One+ Hybrid plan, or purchasing a standalone Pro perpetual license upgrade (Pro-to-Pro) at any time. All three purchase options are available for users on non-updating Pro licenses. Prior supported versions of Studio One Pro will also remain available to you, should you need to roll back for any reason.

[Terry Kelley]

What us long term users need to accept (and by long term, those that have been using some form of Cakewalk for decades) is that we aren’t the market. The market is the younger generations and their methods for creating music/content. They have a different view of subscriptions and the add-ons appeal to them.  

So I won’t be shocked if I never get my perpetual license. I’m not who BL is marketing to. I am part of the user base that’s fading away.

Edited April 30 by Terry Kelley

[Misha]

"I won’t be shocked if I never get my perpetual license. "

"I am part of the user base that’s fading away."

I disagree for 3 reasons:

#1 - Noel confirmed there will be "other" ways to get Sonar.

#2   The "fading" base is still relevant for foreseeable  future.

#3  Most DAWs, even "beatmaker" centric  FL Studio, all sell perpetual licenses.

 

-----------------

My take, a BIG announcement should be made before June 16, marking a year after the public announcement, otherwise it would be very strange.  Just speculating. 

I do see that Bakers are working hard, polishing and adding features to Sonar at a very impressive pace.  Hopefully unveiling will take place shortly. 

 

 

[Heath Row]

9 hours ago, ptheisen said:

Perhaps a more accurate term would be 'non-updatable' instead of 'non-upgradable'. Here is what the PreSonus website Hybrid Q & A says (the bolding is mine):

Will I get bug fix updates to my version of Studio One Pro after my Studio One+ Hybrid subscription has expired?

All minor “point-point” or “sub-point” maintenance updates (X.X.1, X.X.2, etc.) will be available to you until the next major "point" release (Ex. X.1, X.2, X.5, etc.). If you are on version X.1 when your Hybrid subscription expires, you will be eligible for point-point releases X.1.1, X.1.2, etc. Your non-updating Pro license will not be eligible for a free update to version X.2. You can get access to the latest major point release by purchasing a Studio One+ Monthly plan, renewing your Studio One+ Hybrid plan, or purchasing a standalone Pro perpetual license upgrade (Pro-to-Pro) at any time. All three purchase options are available for users on non-updating Pro licenses. Prior supported versions of Studio One Pro will also remain available to you, should you need to roll back for any reason.

Ahhh yes, that's it, thank you, I know I had read it, as it is of no concern to me I would have just sped over it and not really taken it in, I have been on Perpetual license since I changed over to Studio One back in 2015 and no thought of changing my license arrangement. ?

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, Misha said:

"I won’t be shocked if I never get my perpetual license. "

"I am part of the user base that’s fading away."

I disagree for 3 reasons:

#1 - Noel confirmed there will be "other" ways to get Sonar.

#2   The "fading" base is still relevant for foreseeable  future.

#3  Most DAWs, even "beatmaker" centric  FL Studio, all sell perpetual licenses.

 

-----------------

My take, a BIG announcement should be made before June 16, marking a year after the public announcement, otherwise it would be very strange.  Just speculating. 

I do see that Bakers are working hard, polishing and adding features to Sonar at a very impressive pace.  Hopefully unveiling will take place shortly. 

 

 

So, if the subscription version is OK to take peoples $$$, (which it seems it is) why isn't the perpetual, whatever you want to call it license.

Soon!

Not trying to argue-But agree that Coming Soon has passed a while back. This is NOT SOON for a product that has been around since forever and you are selling subscriptions..

Edited May 1 by Pathfinder

[Terry Kelley]

On 4/30/2024 at 2:08 PM, Misha said:

"I won’t be shocked if I never get my perpetual license. "

"I am part of the user base that’s fading away."

I disagree for 3 reasons:

#1 - Noel confirmed there will be "other" ways to get Sonar.

#2   The "fading" base is still relevant for foreseeable  future.

#3  Most DAWs, even "beatmaker" centric  FL Studio, all sell perpetual licenses.

 

-----------------

My take, a BIG announcement should be made before June 16, marking a year after the public announcement, otherwise it would be very strange.  Just speculating. 

I do see that Bakers are working hard, polishing and adding features to Sonar at a very impressive pace.  Hopefully unveiling will take place shortly. 

 

 

Noel never confirmed or suggested there will be a way to "buy" Cakewalk outside of a subscription. Only 'they are thinking of things.' We can speculate all day what that might be but we know nothing at this point. Maybe BL will - maybe BL won't. Hope is great but so far we have nothing to base it on.

My "fading base" comment was in reference to the newer and far more used methods of creating music. It's different that even 20 years ago. These are the people that will bring revenue to BL in the long run. Those of use that grew up with tape machines and non-automated boards are slowly disappearing.  The user base will continue to shift from us long-timer musicians to the newer "loop and sample with AI and prerecorded snips" people. It's just life.

No doubt us long time users will continue to create music and be some level of revenue to BL but what we may want isn't on the BL radar unless it aligns with the younger user base. No we ain't dead but the world is changing and hoping BL will give us something special is unlikely. Maybe a good price and subscription for hanging in there. I personally just want to know what that is but the waiting causing my attention to drift. But again, I won't be a loss to BL.

Edited May 1 by Terry Kelley

[Cecelius2]

It is interesting to note that Presonus recently modified their Studio One 6 + pricing schemes to include the Hybrid+ because they heard the concerns of their users.   This was not their initial Plus pricing plans, but they "heard the concerns of their" user base and came up with the Studio One + Hybrid plan.  I hope (and trust) that Bandlab will follow the wisdom of listening to their client's plea for a similar plan (call it perpetual or call it Hyrbid).  Bandlab hopefully will offer a perpetual (or Hybrid+) type program.  See Presonsus announcement [at 0.50 minutes into the announcement]  were they heard the concerns of their users :