Expression pedal

[jkoseattle]

I have an expression pedal plugged into my keyboard, but a couple things aren't working as expected when I am trying to record expression:

1) When recording, If I slowly press the pedal up from it's lowest position, the expression movement only shows that it's going from about 60% to 100% in CW. it also sounds like it. It's not that the pedal only transmits data once the pedal gets to 60%, as all movement is being recorded - it's that the lowest expression reading starts at about 60%.

2) The pedal movements are being recorded as actual clips that sprout a new take lane rather than as an envelope. Is this to be expected? Before recording I made an envelope for Midi channel 11, and if I manually edit this envelope the instrument does what I want, (and what I expect the pedal to be doing). But I am not abel to affect this envelope using the pedal.

I haven't used this pedal in a few years, but I'm pretty darn sure it wasn't like this back then. Ideas?

[Promidi]

5 hours ago, jkoseattle said:

I have an expression pedal plugged into my keyboard, but a couple things aren't working as expected when I am trying to record expression:

What is the exact make and model of your expression pedal? 

What is the exact model of of your keyboard?

I have a Yamaha FC-7 Expression pedal plugged into a Edirol (or Roland) PCR-800.

For this combination to work correctly, I had to also purchase a couple of adapter leads to connect between the Expression pedal and the PCR-800 to reverse the polarity.  Mine goes from 0% to 100% (or 0 to 127).  Without those adapter leads, that range transmitted was all over the place.

[jkoseattle]

Interesting. This all used to work, but it's been a couple years. The keyboard is M-Audio Hammer 88, and the expression pedal is M-Audio EX-P

[David Baay]

By default, the keyboad is just going to generate MIDI CC11 messages in response tp the pedal, and that's what will be recorded. In order to use it to write automation, you would need to set up the PCR800 as a Generic Control Surface and map CC11 to write automation. And rather than "recording" automation, you enable Write on the track and write the automation during playback. Since setting up a keyboard as a Control Surface will interfere with using is as an ordinary MIDI controller and takes some work, I would suggest you just go ahead an record CC11 as usual and leave it that way. If you really want it to be implemented as an automation envelope for editing, you can convert it after the fact  by Clips > Convert MIDI Controllers to Envelopes.

[jkoseattle]

Thanks, so what happens if I do both the CC11 clips AND an envelope?  Because I still have the problem of only recording the top end of the CC11 spectrum, which is what necessitated my drawing envelopes by hand in the first place.

[David Baay]

I think the CC11 messages and envelope will be in contention and one won't consistently prevail over the other. CC11 operate within the maximum Master Volume  level established by CC7, so to some extent you can compensate for a limited range of CC11 by raising/lowering the Master Volume. But you should probably just pursue getting the PCR800 to respond correctly to the Expression Pedal as Promidi described. It might just be a matter of ensuring the pedal is at one extreme or the other when you power up the keyboard.

Edited December 21, 2023 by David Baay

[Promidi]

1 hour ago, David Baay said:

I think the CC11 messages and envelope will be in contention and one won't consistently prevail over the other. CC11 operate within the maximum Master Volume  level established by CC7, so to some extent you can compensate for a limited range of CC11 by raising/lowering the Master Volume. But you should probably just pursue getting the PCR800 to respond correctly to the Expression Pedal as Promidi described. It might just be a matter of ensuring the pedal is at one extreme or the other when you power up the keyboard.

I am the one with the PCR800 (Working fine)

The OP stated they have an an M-Audio EX-P expression pedal connected to a M-Audio Hammer 88

I would have thought, with both items being from the sane manufacture, that this combination would be fine.

To the OP: 

You say you’re only getting 60% to 100%. 

Are you able to use MIDI monitoring software to see what the M-Audio Hammer 88 is actually transmitting when moving the expression pedal?

I use the free utility ShowMIDI for this. 

This can run in standalone or as a VST and will show you what the M-Audio Hammer 88 is actually transmitting when moving the expression pedal.

https://github.com/gbevin/ShowMIDI/releases

[David Baay]

5 hours ago, Promidi said:

I am the one with the PCR800 (Working fine)

The OP stated they have an an M-Audio EX-P expression pedal connected to a M-Audio Hammer 88

Oops. I hate it when that happens. ;^)

But, yes, the OP needs to determine whether the Hammer 88 is outputting the full range, and if not, why not. 

[jkoseattle]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:47 AM, Promidi said:

To the OP: 

You say you’re only getting 60% to 100%. 

Are you able to use MIDI monitoring software to see what the M-Audio Hammer 88 is actually transmitting when moving the expression pedal?

I use the free utility ShowMIDI for this. 

This can run in standalone or as a VST and will show you what the M-Audio Hammer 88 is actually transmitting when moving the expression pedal.

https://github.com/gbevin/ShowMIDI/releases

Thanks for the advice. I installed ShowMIDI as instructed, and it worked great right away. What I learned is that the expression pedal does generate CC11 through the it's entire range of motion, but the range of messages only go from 83 to 127. So pressing the pedal from bottom to top will generate messages starting at 83 and going up to 127. This agrees with what Cakewalk is recording. The pedal itself is sending messages through its whole range, so it doesn't appear to be a physical issue, just that it won't send anything below 83. 

So now what?

[Promidi]

27 minutes ago, jkoseattle said:

Thanks for the advice. I installed ShowMIDI as instructed, and it worked great right away. What I learned is that the expression pedal does generate CC11 through the it's entire range of motion, but the range of messages only go from 83 to 127. So pressing the pedal from bottom to top will generate messages starting at 83 and going up to 127. This agrees with what Cakewalk is recording. The pedal itself is sending messages through its whole range, so it doesn't appear to be a physical issue, just that it won't send anything below 83. 

So now what?

Which range of values is ShowMIDI standalone displaying.   83 to 127, or 0 to 127?

[jkoseattle]

I've only used it in standalone so far, so 83-127

[David Baay]

The pedal just presents a variable resistance to the keyboard's pedal input. The circuit behind that input passes a small current through the resistance to translate it to a voltage drop which is in turn used to determine the level of controller mssages. It's the keyboard that generates the message, not the pedal.  If the messages are not covering the full range, it's likely down to some keyboard configuration estting, but it's possible the pedal isn't generating the full range of resistance from near zero/closed to effectively infinite/open circuit. You can test the keyboard by plugingon/off-style sustain pedal into the input, and verifying you get 0 and 127.

Edited March 22 by David Baay

[jkoseattle]

Right, that's how I assumed it worked. The entire range of the pedal is sending signals to the keyboard, it's just that when I go down to the lowest, it's about 83-85. Yesterday it was 83, today it's 85. (That seems significant somehow.) I also have a sustain pedal and it generates 0 and 127 as always.

[jkoseattle]

I just looked at the manual for the keyboard and it does say that you power down and back up the keyboard and the pedals reset, so that I should have the pedal at 0 when powering up. Which I did, no change however. Still bottoms out at 85

 

[David Baay]

2 minutes ago, jkoseattle said:

Yesterday it was 83, today it's 85. (That seems significant somehow.) I also have a sustain pedal and it generates 0 and 127 as always.

Sure sounds like the pedal is not generating the full range of resistance. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the convention is, but would guess theres a high-resistance connection somehwere so it's never getting as close to zero as it should and limiting how far down the messages will get. It could be the opposite - that there's current leakage when it should be open circuit - but that seems less likely. Maybe take the pedal apart and check for cold/broken solder joints, etc.

[jkoseattle]

What David said: "Maybe take the pedal apart and check for cold/broken solder joints, etc."
What Jim heard: "Maybe go buy a new pedal."

[Glenn Stanton]

what Glenn heard: "use some electronic cleaner spray to remove the built up gunk (open the back up)" (10 min) and "if it's still failing - check the resistance settings (open the back up)" (5 min) and "if it's still failing, buy a new pedal" (24-48 hours)? 

Edited March 22 by Glenn Stanton

[Promidi]

Personally I would just skip the fluffing around and just get a new pedal.... 

[jkoseattle]

On 3/22/2024 at 12:52 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

what Glenn heard: "use some electronic cleaner spray to remove the built up gunk (open the back up)" (10 min) and "if it's still failing - check the resistance settings (open the back up)" (5 min) and "if it's still failing, buy a new pedal" (24-48 hours)? 

 

Edited for realism: 
what Glenn heard: "find out what electronic cleaner spray is (20 min) go to store to get electronic cleaner spray (1 hour) come home empty handed and buy electronic cleaner spray on Amazon (10 min) await delivery (1000 min) grab some tools and clear table space (15 min) figure out how to open pedal and poke around acquainting oneself with the innards (25 min) try and determine what built up gunk might actually look like and whether or not any is even in there (20 min) use some electronic cleaner spray to remove the built up gunk" (10 min) and "if it's still failing - check the resistance settings (open the back up)" (5 min) and "if it's still failing, buy a new pedal" (24-48 hours)? 

[Starship Krupa]

On 3/22/2024 at 12:52 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

what Glenn heard: "use some electronic cleaner spray to remove the built up gunk (open the back up)" (10 min) and "if it's still failing - check the resistance settings (open the back up)" (5 min) and "if it's still failing, buy a new pedal" (24-48 hours)? 

I'd say check the setting on that low limit pot.

[Glenn Stanton]

19 hours ago, jkoseattle said:

go to store to get electronic cleaner spray

WHAT!!! you have electronics and no electronics cleaner spray?   LOL ?