Feature Request > MIDI Program Changes to VST3 Instruments

[User 905133]

So far as I can see standard MIDI Program Changes [aka patch/preset changes] don't work for VST3 Instruments within CbB.  I am hoping the feature can be added to Cakewalk Sonar.  Thanks.

[Xoo]

Limitation of VST3 spec as far as I underatand.

[JnTuneTech]

I know you won't like this answer, but the feature is not something that Cakewalk has much choice in, currently. The standards for VST programming are generally set by Steinberg, and then it's up to the plugin developers to use those standards, or not. With VST3, the methods of implementing MIDI Program Changes are not the same as the (now very old) General MIDI practices that were/are widely used in instruments, and eventually ported over to many VST2 plugins as well.

As I understand it, until VST3 programming adopts some kind of published and accepted common method for implementing MIDI Program Changes, it would be impossible for Cakewalk to have any way to create a common, useful way to approach it. For now, we can use manual MIDI programming in tracks, together with the documented method that works for your goals in the VST3 you are using. -In my experience, so far, very few VST3 instruments use the same method to change banks & programs. But they usually will do it, and usually have the necessary documentation for you to follow, and thus use that in your tracking in Cakewalk.

-Sadly, I realize that is not as easy as using the General MIDI banks & program change mapping that came with earlier VST implementations.

Edited October 28, 2023 by JnTuneTech
clarifications...

[User 905133]

10 minutes ago, Xoo said:

Limitation of VST3 spec as far as I underatand.

That's what I thought for years.  But today I am not sure the VST3 standard prevents the use of midi program changes.  I have had VST3 instruments respond today in both a VST host and also a DAW.

Edited October 28, 2023 by User 905133

[JnTuneTech]

26 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

That's what I thought for years.  But today I am not sure the VST3 standard prevents the use of midi program changes.  I have had VST3 instruments respond to today in both a VST host and also a DAW.

It doesn't prevent it at all. But most programmers are not using the older bank & patch list functionality that has existed before. -But yes, some do!

-Perhaps we could suggest that Cakewalk look into developing a "Patch/Bank Mapping Tool" - I would think similar in function to the existing Drum Map tool. It would still take more manual intervention to set up the maps for VST3 instruments that do not use the type of setup that could quickly adapt the General MIDI standards of old, but then as it is, drum mapping is often a chore that way too. -But the point is, it could be very useful to have a simpler - GUI  interface for converting the existing MIDI Bank/Patch Change functions in Cakewalk to different MIDI control changes, as needed for different VST implementations.  -That would be my suggestion if any valid feature could be added by Cakewalk in this regard.

P.S. - Interestingly enough, I bet we could make Articulation Maps work for VSTs that don't use General MIDI bank/patch change programming. -I have thought about it, but so far I just  have never had a need large enough to try it!

Edited October 28, 2023 by JnTuneTech
additional clarifications - info

[User 905133]

19 minutes ago, JnTuneTech said:

I know you won't like this answer, but the feature is not something that Cakewalk has much choice in, currently. 

I think you might be underestimating the potential.  At least I hope you are.  I am not going to give up on Cakewalk so easily and say that it can't be done because of Steinberg's approach. 

I understand that some soft synth instrument makers choose to implement program changes and/or bank switching and some don't. By the same token some music software allows for standard midi program changes to do what the specs call for it to do with regard to soft synths that implement program changes in VST3s.

I simply made an optimistic feature request based on some things I found happening today (literally today!!).  Many times over the years when someone said "Program changes don't work," my stock reply was, if the plug-in has a dll/VST version, have you tried that?  So I fully understand where you are coming from.

However, based on what I saw today, I stand by my expression of optimism:

2 hours ago, User 905133 said:

So far as I can see standard MIDI Program Changes [aka patch/preset changes] don't work for VST3 Instruments within CbB.  I am hoping the feature can be added to Cakewalk Sonar.  Thanks.

As for your requests for a patch/bank mapping tool with a feature that converts program changes to use CCs , I would encourage you to make such a feature request.  I don't think your requested feature would preclude the feature I requested. 

 

[JnTuneTech]

4 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

As for your requests for a patch/bank mapping tool with a feature that converts program changes to use CCs , I would encourage you to make such a feature request.  I don't think your requested feature would preclude the feature I requested.

I agree with what you've been saying (and especially the optimism!).  For right now though, I've never had many VST3 instruments that I need it to apply to, and I am still pondering trying Articulation Mapping on the few that it might help with. And in past discussions on this subject, so many other responses seem to indicate there aren't many of us out there who want to use program changes dynamically in VST, since nowadays it's easy to just have several plugin instances...  but I apologize - now I'm being pessimistic again!  -You are probably quite correct.