Good LAWD....those Soundtoys plugins are hungry, hungry hippos.

[HOOK]

I just switched to Win 11 and had to get latency under control again....bios and OS tweaks.  Got it.  But it sure is a reminder that a couple of the Soundtoys plugins I use are near impossible to use when tracking with a buffer under 256.

Little AlterBoy & Little MicroShift are both latency machines.

[Glenn Stanton]

most pitch shifting plugins aren't great in low latency mode. i generally track without any plugins and try to use direct monitoring to avoid any latency effects in monitoring. and if someone needs a bit of reverb, i'll use the mixer built-in reverb... ? then just adjust the recorded tracks by whatever the latency setting shows (e.g. if 5ms or 10ms, then shift things left 5-10ms) and done. i've found it just safer to get recordings without any possible glitching due to plugin overhead or even mysterious system occurrences ? 

[Helios.G]

14 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

most pitch shifting plugins aren't great in low latency mode. i generally track without any plugins and try to use direct monitoring to avoid any latency effects in monitoring. and if someone needs a bit of reverb, i'll use the mixer built-in reverb... ? then just adjust the recorded tracks by whatever the latency setting shows (e.g. if 5ms or 10ms, then shift things left 5-10ms) and done. i've found it just safer to get recordings without any possible glitching due to plugin overhead or even mysterious system occurrences ? 

I use plugins to monitor with Reverb, usually sonitus for these purposes. I set up two tracks, both with input monitoring on. I place sonitus with a room verb on at about 60% wet on the 1st track, and the 2nd track is dry.  when the artist is recording, they hear themselves through the sonitus plug, because of the nature of reverb having some natural decay time, it doesn't sound off or unnatural to them, and I get the dry version for my purposes with the other track. I use this trick for a lot stuff. Takes some finagaling depending your system specs, but even for simple setups, this usually works great.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Helios.G

[HOOK]

I've tracked bands with plugins starting back in about 2005 with a dual Xeon system running Server 2003.  That machine was a beast for the time and REALLY allowed me to finally work the way I wanted.  I certainly know the limitations.  You just have to build a killer machine.  And it's a lot easier to do today than it was back then.  But even with a killer machine, those two plugins tell me to take a flying leap.  ?

[HOOK]

37 minutes ago, Glenn Stanton said:

most pitch shifting plugins aren't great in low latency mode. i generally track without any plugins and try to use direct monitoring to avoid any latency effects in monitoring. and if someone needs a bit of reverb, i'll use the mixer built-in reverb... ? then just adjust the recorded tracks by whatever the latency setting shows (e.g. if 5ms or 10ms, then shift things left 5-10ms) and done. i've found it just safer to get recordings without any possible glitching due to plugin overhead or even mysterious system occurrences ? 

I can't even imagine having to adjusting things by hand due to latency.  No way.

[Glenn Stanton]

yeah, it depends on how many tracks you're recording at any one time. for me - i can only do 16 at the same time. so moving them is fairly quick, and regardless, all systems have some latency even if its 2.5ms, when you are adding tracks to recorded material (overdubs etc), you'll still need to accommodate that unless there is something i'm not doing correctly ? 

[HOOK]

Meehhhh....I think you're overthinking it.  I don't know anyone who moves overdubs like that.  It's literally like telling your guitarist to stand on your head while he plays because 2.5 feet away is too far and you can hear the 2.5ms delay.  Or 10 feet for that matter.

[Will.]

On 9/29/2023 at 5:06 PM, Glenn Stanton said:

most pitch shifting plugins aren't great in low latency mode. i generally track without any plugins and try to use direct monitoring to avoid any latency effects in monitoring. and if someone needs a bit of reverb, i'll use the mixer built-in reverb... ? then just adjust the recorded tracks by whatever the latency setting shows (e.g. if 5ms or 10ms, then shift things left 5-10ms) and done. i've found it just safer to get recordings without any possible glitching due to plugin overhead or even mysterious system occurrences ? 

Seems like you are having some other issues here causing you to work this way. Shifting tracks offbeat to fix latency - thats not right. 

[Glenn Stanton]

not really - i like to use no latency approach to recording live instruments and vocals - so the monitoring is not echoed from the DAW, but from the mixer and monitoring gear. so that also means i can specify the latency on the recording. say 100ms one-way. then after i record, i know the tracks are shifted 100ms and simply move them to the left 100ms. done. no possibilities of crackles, pops, or problems with performances impacted by latency from the DAW and IO echo. 

some folks are ok with 3, 5, 10, or even 20ms latency (roundtrip) with the DAW recording-echo approach. i think it's just simpler to accept it and move it to align the tracks. takes mere seconds to set and ready for next round of recording.

actually, if you watch the Paul McCartney @ Abbey Roads special (2011? https://youtu.be/9elQeVfrLOo?si=qm8jLR_xLK-e2T_Z) where he is demonstrating (all solo performances except audience sing & clap along) the old recording processes he (and the Beatles) used with tape, and then his tech using pro tools, you can see the tech doing the manual latency shifts in near real time after each take and before Paul begins a new track (granted much older technology but same principle).

much less complex than say trying to time align or phase align drums, etc.

so no issues for me. note that my UMC1820 can get roundtrip down to 2.3ms on my desktop, and 5.2ms on my laptop, but really, why bother with the potential for combing effects from even minor latency when direct monitoring basically solves that. and my mixers (Behringer EURORACK UB1202FX ) built-in effects like reverb and delay provide singers with some of that without using up any of my CPU processing as well.

so my path = mic / DI -> preamp -> IO -> IO USB to/from PC (record in + play out) + direct out -> mixer into headphone monitoring w/ any effects desired.  so all clean mic and DI signals in via IO, and the direct monitoring and recorded play out via the mixer/monitor.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Glenn Stanton

[HOOK]

That's absolutely not what the engineer is doing.  He's not shifting for latency....he's quickly building a loop so Paul can lay down the next part.

If you're playing on time and you have to shift every single take because of latency, something is very wrong.  That's not normal.

 

[shane]

I've been emailing with ST support for a few days reporting this; Little Alter Boy is giving me CPU spiking and "late buffers" (which continually increase. I assume Little Microshift is the same. 

Important note: I am NOT using these on live inputs, they are inserted as regular plugins. 

Previously, the beta cured similar dropouts, whereas in about the last month they have returned. This was around the time of the new Cakewalk 2023.09 (build 062)

 

[shane]

Anyone get anywhere with SoundToys on this? 

I heard from Support a couple times, but it wasn't very helpful. 

These ST plugins are grinding this project to a halt. 

[57Gregy]

Bub, maybe make a copy of the project then freeze all those tracks or bounce to tracks and archive so they're not dragging you down. The copy would be so you have references of what your settings are.

[HOOK]

On 11/10/2023 at 2:15 PM, shane said:

Anyone get anywhere with SoundToys on this? 

I heard from Support a couple times, but it wasn't very helpful. 

These ST plugins are grinding this project to a halt. 

I'm just very judicious with which ones I'll use in real-time.  A couple months back there was the issue with the VST3 versions causing havoc even with large buffers.  I had to roll back to VST2.  And though I've heard the VST3 problem is fixed, I've stayed with the VST2 and have had no problems while mixing.

[Keni]

Yeah, I'm learning this with Little Plate too...

I've gotta increase the latency more than ever before to use this plugin...

 

I'm gonna look/see if I have both vst2/3 and try the vst2 if it's there as I typically defer to the vst3... Maybe that'll be a little better?

 

 

Edit:

 

Wow! Massive difference. Switching to the vst2 version instead of vst3 and my system is back to normal able to run clean at 128!

I have no particular need of the vst3 version to begin with!

Thanks for the tip!

 

Edit 2:

With this thought in mind, I just tried this same "trick" on one of my most resourse hungry plugins... Cherry Audio's Memorymode...

Running the vst2 instead of the vst3 again totally change the situation and the plugin runs clean as a whistle at 128!

I think I'm swearing off on all vst3 versions of plugins for the time being. I see very little need for the vst3 versions (for me)

Edited November 13, 2023 by Keni

[HOOK]

When I talked to the guys at Sound Toys, they were quick to send me links to the previous version installers.  You might keep that in mind as an option as well.

[Keni]

52 minutes ago, HOOK said:

When I talked to the guys at Sound Toys, they were quick to send me links to the previous version installers.  You might keep that in mind as an option as well.

Thanks.

I'll remember that if a need for the vst3 arises. As far as I remember, the only really significant difference is the side chaining which I rarely use.

[shane]

Wow. 

I'll roll back to VST2 and see how it helps. 

Just wish they would address us Cakewalk users... seems they did, then set us to "ignore for now" 

[shane]

Update after a few weeks of VST2 vs. VST3: Seems like VST3 versions are ok AS LONG AS YOU DON'T AUTOMATE PARAMETERS.

With this automation, dropouts and Late Buffers are constant. 

Freezing the audio cures the issue(s)

[Keni]

8 minutes ago, shane said:

Update after a few weeks of VST2 vs. VST3: Seems like VST3 versions are ok AS LONG AS YOU DON'T AUTOMATE PARAMETERS.

With this automation, dropouts and Late Buffers are constant. 

Freezing the audio cures the issue(s)

Interesting observation, but often for me I don't know if I'm going to need automation until long after adding the effect