After update, Instrument Definition seems not to change patches properly on XW-P1 anymore?

[Quinellipe Zorn]

Hi,

After the most recent update, it seems that something altered how the instrument definition for the XW-P1 is working on my machine.  The patch changes are not properly transmitting, they seem to be only changing to a patch within a bank rather than properly across banks.  For example, selecting a hex layer patch ends up simply selecting the same number one among the XW P1's general MIDI bank.  

I remember having bank/patch change setup issues before, but am for now stumped trying to figure out what to do or if there's simply a file I can restore from before the update, any advice appreciated, thank you.  I seem to recall it's something simple about the bank change method but somehow as I try 0 and 32 and etc. I'm not quite getting it...bugs me as I did fix this years ago...

Seems to have happened due to the upgrade 

[Promidi]

I use combination Bank/Patch changes on an SW1000XG MIDI card (which has over 1200 patches) and these patch change events are sent correctly here on 2023.09 Build 62.  

I use the SW1000Xg Instrument Definition file that I have always used, and the patch names on the downdown still match and play correctly.

The correct Bank/patch is always selected on the SW1000XG part at the Bank/Patch change in a given CbB track (or at the beginning from the Bank/patch setting of the track).

Something else must be going on here.

Is there a way for you to verify what MIDI events CbB is actually sending when a Bank/Patch change is required?

Maybe find a way to route the MIDI to a utility like MIDI-OX

Note: My Bank Selection Method is set to “Normal”.  For any of my MIDI only projects, each MIDI track’s settings are set to their specific MIDI channel.

[Quinellipe Zorn]

Thank you.  Perhaps I can demonstrate this problem a different way that helps,

If I record MIDI, and I change to the preset hex layer bank (97), the recorded event will show as a "Normal" Bank Select Method Patch Change, and while it will play back correctly on the XW-P1, selecting the correct bank and sound, the Bank # that shows in Cakewalk is 12416 (which is out of range) and the name that appears is "Overdriven Guitar' (which doesn't even appear on the XW-P1 list of patches as such.   Notably, 12416 = 97*128.  Just as notably, the next patch change shows in Cakewalk as 12288 which is 96*128 and, yes, the bank is 96 on the XW1 (and, yes, playback works fine if I leave it that way).  And, yes, if I change the Data to Controller 0 and the value to 97 or 96, for each of these, it will play correctly, as well as show the correct name.  

But ever since reassociating the Casio XW-P1 to the device, as I had to do after the upgrade as it lost association, selecting from the Patch Browser  for the track does not send the correct bank change, whether I set it to Controller 0 or Normal Bank Select (it should be Controller 0, I believe, as seems demonstrated given that as I "hardcode" a Patch change event with Controller 0 and the Patch #, it always performs as expected).

I'm making a dumb MIDI knowledge mistake here, I just can't remember the tweak I had to do last time this happened.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Quinellipe Zorn

[Quinellipe Zorn]

Okay, I'm zeroing in on it and it seems weird to me and seems to point to project-specific-something and related to being in the same project with imported MIDI tracks, here's why...

I've realized the only projects in which this is happening are ones with imported MIDI tracks - something I don't normally do and has been just in a couple recent projects.  Going back further with typical-for-me/most projects with no imported MIDI tracks, no issues in banks changing when selecting a sound in the patch browser.  Quite strange, at least so far, I'm probably missing something obvious.  (Yes, I am soloing a single track, trying different ones, in testing this.  If I add using the same track template to the projects with imported MIDI, they don't change banks, while they do change patches, but if in non-imported MIDI projects, so far so good.)

In case that helps anyone help me.  I'm sure it's something foolish on my end...anyway, thank you!

(And I am guilty of not doing a reboot, I will do that later, probably early AM local time Monday).

Edited September 25, 2023 by Quinellipe Zorn

[Promidi]

I have never worried about actual bank or patch numbers. 

I simply let the Instrument Definition file take care of that for me.  

As long as the MIDI track is routed to the MIDI port that the SW1000XG is connected to, and the correct MIDI channel is selected, it just works.  Also, in Preferences - MIDI - Instruments, I point the respective Output/Channel to the correct instrument (All except for 10 is “Yamaha SW1000XG”, 10 is “Yamaha SW1000XG Drums”)

I have never had to enter actual numerical data to selected Banks and Patches.  I also always use the patch browser (which is populated using information contained in the Master,ins file, which itself has data inserted by importing the Instrument Definition file).

If I ever imported MIDI data that contains its own Bank/Patches MIDI events I would just delete those and then enter new ones that I know work for the SW1000XG.

[Quinellipe Zorn]

Yup, thanks Promidi, until now it's been working like that w/o issue (I reloaded the definition file as part of trying to figure it out).  This seems restricted to just some oddity with imported MIDI clip files, as strange as that sounds.  

(And some point earlier finally remembered/found it was master.ins that had the actual data, all looks fine/as it was before as far as I can tell and per checking a backup version.)

Edited September 25, 2023 by Quinellipe Zorn

[57Gregy]

17 hours ago, Quinellipe Zorn said:

I've realized the only projects in which this is happening are ones with imported MIDI tracks - something I don't normally do

I wonder what would happen if you Open those MIDI tracks instead of Importing them?

[Quinellipe Zorn]

This is just the weirdest thing I can recall in a long, long time...

After messing around and with the only change being disabling and reenabling devices in MIDI, it seems at least some MIDI files have no issues such as this.  And creating a brand new file, there's no issues.  Also no issues opening CWPs which have worked.  But if I open this one CWP (or other versions of it), the banks will not change properly on the XW-P1 AND from then on they won't, as if the file has sent the XW-P1 some sysex it doesn't "like."  

I'm probably going to just give up on it as it's so weirdly isolated an issue that seems to have otherwise, other than this odd project, "fixed itself" re opening new MID files after I reenabled the devices.

(Separately, not an issue at first after I updated and not an issue until just today after a Win11 update and I rebooted, VSTs are taking forever to load (independent of above).  Though I'm guessing that this is an independent Waves thing as I see I'm getting weirdness I've seen before where Waves Central claims not to see "any" activated plugins and seems to somehow think my C drive is "disconnected", yet the plugins are working just fine.   But I imagine that's an unrelated Waves thing, now I'm just venting, haha.)

[Quinellipe Zorn]

GOT IT!  At least in part!

For some reason, in the affected CWP/MID files where this problem manifests (and will remain resident on opening at least MID files afterward), is that when I change the MIDI output/instrument the Bank Select method for the *TRACK* does *NOT* change!!!  It remains as "Normal" instead of changing to "Controller 0"!  Why, well, that part I have no idea.  But I see now all I have to do is go down and change that, and then everything works as one would expect.  

For whatever reason, update or whatever, I never ran into this behavior of the Bank Select method not changing when the MIDI output/instrument changes before.  

Thank you to everyone who volunteered ideas!

Now everything is back to functioning as I had come to expect.  I don't know why this weird little bug now happens, but I can easily fix it and move on when it does.