Motu 4x4 keeps crashing; alternate interface recommendations?

[Thomas Happ]

As said in the title, my Motu 4x4 (or at least its drivers) keeps crashing.  Basically it'll get an "Audio Engine Dropout" and then all sound stops working across the computer.   Buffer size doesn't matter.  Sometimes it will start working on its own again after a few minutes, other times I need to turn the interface off and on, other times I need to reboot the computer. I can trigger it most easily by loading  up Rob Papen's Punch 2 and switching between kits with lots of samples, but it happens randomly at times as well, and I can't leave cakewalk open overnight or it will happen then.

While it may be at least partially a Cakewalk issue as well as a Motu issue, I feel that an interface should be reliable enough not to get crashed by a DAW.

Does anyone have recommendations for similar interfaces that are good but more reliable?  I'd prefer not to have to get an RME since I feel like it is way more than I should spend, but I do want something that won't crash all the time.

I'm on CBB version 2023.09 build 062, Windows 11, i9-12900K   3.19 GHz, 32 gb ram.

EDIT:  It appears the problem is reduced but not completely solved by plugging the M4 into a USB 2.0 rather than a USB 3.0 port.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Thomas Happ
Added some more info

[Scott MacBride]

I'm using a Focusrite Clarrett interface.  Been using it with Cakewalk for several years and I've never had a crash.

[rsinger]

Is the MOTU new? I've been using a MOTU 4x4 without any problems for years. My DAW is Win10 though.

[Thomas Happ]

46 minutes ago, Scott MacBride said:

I'm using a Focusrite Clarrett interface.  Been using it with Cakewalk for several years and I've never had a crash.

Okay maybe I'll give that a shot.

 

14 minutes ago, rsinger said:

Is the MOTU new? I've been using a MOTU 4x4 without any problems for years. My DAW is Win10 though.

I've had it about 2 months.  I should have returned it in 30 days but I hadn't been writing music for a couple of years so I took me a while to see a pattern to the crashes.  Ironically I got windows 11 because it is supposed to make better use of the i9-12900K's many cores , but I do have suspicions that this tech could be a problem for MOTU and/or cakewalk.

[Byron Dickens]

MOTU is a very heavily Mac-centric company.

[HOOK]

I don't see that you mentioned having the newest drivers and firmware for the MOTU.  There are 2023 drivers here.  I'd do this before spending more money.

https://motu.com/en-us/download/#category=1&product=410

[rsinger]

4 hours ago, Thomas Happ said:

I've had it about 2 months.  I should have returned it in 30 days but I hadn't been writing music for a couple of years so I took me a while to see a pattern to the crashes.  Ironically I got windows 11 because it is supposed to make better use of the i9-12900K's many cores , but I do have suspicions that this tech could be a problem for MOTU and/or cakewalk.

Have you tried different usb ports? My M4 didn't like the first usb port I tried. If you have some usb 2.0 ports try those. I switched to a different one and it's been fine since. Another thing to check is the power settings and make sure that selective suspend is disabled on the usb port you're using. Also disable usb power management. I'd try trouble shooting before replacing it, I think it's a nice IF for the price.

Edited September 22, 2023 by rsinger

[John Vere]

As far as I can tell there is no such thing as a Motu 4x4 but there is a M4 which is the interface I've been using for a few years now. 

And yes as @rsinger just said mine was funky when I first got it and an letter to the company resulted in a reply telling me that because it was Bus powered that I need a good USB 3 port. So I purchased a USB 3.0 PCIe card and it solved 96% of the problems. So that's a hidden cost of around $35. Make a note.. 

I had gone against my own advice and bought a bus powered interface. They all have a long history of issues which is related to the USB system on every computer will be a bit different power wise. Solution is only purchase Interfaces that come with power supply. My Tascam us1641 plugs into AC now that's much better. Wall warts are a cop out  in design. Just to keep the heat down I guess. The Tascam isn't even warm! 

Anyhow I like most of the features but pet peeves are..

The lack of a power supply jack. might have  cost $1.00 to add.  

It has to be set at 512 ms just for small projects, the exact same project on same computer will run at 256 or even `128 with my Focusrite Scarlett 1st gen 6i6. Even my old Tascam does 256. So to me it's inferior to an interfaces made 8 years ago. The tascam is from 2008. 

Then the back panel 3/4 input jacks have no toggle for instrument or line input and they are about the most Whimpey signal level I've ever seen in my half a century plus  of using music gear. My Rolland drum machine is inaudible when connected here. Not the same on all my other interfaces, even my 2006 Fast track pro.  

Then it randomly will record garbled audio totally out of the blue and I have to completely re boot system for it to go away???? Possibly once again related to the stupid bus power. Probably a great interface for Mac owners as Byron has said. I'm going back will purchase  a Focusrite or even a RME but first I need a new computer. I more gig and I'm almost there....It sucks how little interfaces have progressed in the last  few years. 

Am I happy with my $370 purchase-no. Do I recommend it- No. What do I recommend. I don't know right now because nothing I looked at had all my ducks in a row. Actually the Behringer x18 my son has let me use is looking better every day. But it doesn't have loopback. 

[msmcleod]

I'd personally recommend the Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 ($300) or a used 1st gen or 2nd gen 6i6 (less than $150).  The features are comparable to the M4, and the drivers (at least for me) have been solid for years.

Neither of these interfaces are bus powered, so you shouldn't have any power issues.

[John Vere]

Every once in a while I get so pd at the Motu I go back to my Scarlett 6i6. But then my workflow is interrupted by simple things like adjusting my headphones between the inputs and playback. This is a simple control on the front of the Motu. The Scarlett requires fussing with the software mixer.  
And the missing Loopback. 

The 8i6 doesn’t have a blend control so I crossed it off my list  at the time it was more expensive too. 

I wrote an article on shopping for your interface a few years ago. It was based on choosing the features you need and not using pricing as I think most people seem to do. You quickly end up with a short list to pick from. But the one unknown will always be that all important ASIO driver.  Manufacturers are all over the map with drivers and keeping them updated. 
I was hoping a driver update would eventually fix the Motu. I’ll see when I get a new computer if that’s what fixes things. Combining the power supply with the USB data connection is a bad design.  Never again .  

[Alan Tubbs]

I haven’t had any probs with the newer ultralight M5 on pc.

[Thomas Happ]

19 hours ago, rsinger said:

Have you tried different usb ports? My M4 didn't like the first usb port I tried. If you have some usb 2.0 ports try those. I switched to a different one and it's been fine since. Another thing to check is the power settings and make sure that selective suspend is disabled on the usb port you're using. Also disable usb power management. I'd try trouble shooting before replacing it, I think it's a nice IF for the price.

I have it plugged into a USB 3 port because I figured more is better, but since this is a USB 2 device maybe that's causing an issue?

I've disabled selective suspend but it didn't help.  I really don't think it could be power management since the LCD is lit up it must be receiving enough.

[Thomas Happ]

22 hours ago, HOOK said:

I don't see that you mentioned having the newest drivers and firmware for the MOTU.  There are 2023 drivers here.  I'd do this before spending more money.

https://motu.com/en-us/download/#category=1&product=410

Thanks for that, it turns out that my firmware was indeed out of date, but updating it doesn't solve the problem.  Or, maybe it solved part of it - I used to get an audio engine dropout warning whenever it crashed but now Cakewalk just continues playing but no sound comes out (and the meters on the front of the M4 are at 0).

[Thomas Happ]

34 minutes ago, Thomas Happ said:

I have it plugged into a USB 3 port because I figured more is better, but since this is a USB 2 device maybe that's causing an issue?

I've disabled selective suspend but it didn't help.  I really don't think it could be power management since the LCD is lit up it must be receiving enough.

Holy cow, it really does need to be on 2.0 and NOT 3.0!  At first I tried going from a blue 3.0 port to a teal 3.1 port, but same problem.  Then I stuck it on the uncolored port (which appears to be intended for the mouse on my PC) and it works - at least for the easy test case of making it crash switching kits in Punch.  We'll see what happens when I leave cakewalk open all night.

[Thomas Happ]

So last night cakewalk didn't crash for the first time in a while, which I'm chalking up to using USB 2.0 instead of 3.0.  Possibly the MOTU drivers just weren't tested in that scenario, or maybe my specific computer's USB 3.0 hardware has some problem.

[John Vere]

As I said Motu tech support told me to purchase a USB 3 card. It might be in your case your USB 2 port has high ma. output. 

[Starship Krupa]

I've seen similar issues solved by switching to an earlier revision USB port before.

My guess is that it somehow has to do with flow control; the interface's USB port was designed with slower data flow in mind and the newer spec ports either overwhelm it or don't hear from it often enough.

Never heard of it with something as recent as the M4, though.

Where I have heard of it was in relation to very old MIDI-only interfaces designed during the USB 1 days. The solution for those is to plug a USB 1 hub into the USB 2 port, which seems to slow the communication down enough so that the interface can handle it.

The only issues I've seen from having bus-powered USB interfaces were related to what the motherboard and/or OS does to USB ports when the computer goes into whatever sleep is enabled. My very recent Presonus Studio 2|4 will have audio but no MIDI after waking my computer. This despite the usual going into power settings and disabling bla bla bla.

I still prefer Firewire for my studio. Firewire was designed from the start for 2-way streaming communication. Looking at the specs you might think that Firewire 400 was slower than USB2, but USB2 was faster in only one direction. I thought I was just being crusty about that until I bought a recent USB interface.

USB still feels to me like I'm trying to do audio over a keyboard/mouse port. Heck, as far as I know, none of the interface manufacturers are even on USB 3 (which at least has asynchronous flow control) yet. I'm hoping that my Focusrite Pro 40 will carry me through until true USB 3 or Thunderbolt interfaces can be had for decent used prices.

Even the antique computers I tend to run the wheels off of have all had USB 3 ports on them, so I don't know what they're waiting for.

[rsinger]

5 hours ago, Thomas Happ said:

So last night cakewalk didn't crash for the first time in a while, which I'm chalking up to using USB 2.0 instead of 3.0.  Possibly the MOTU drivers just weren't tested in that scenario, or maybe my specific computer's USB 3.0 hardware has some problem.

Glad to hear it. I first tried a usb 3 port and when that was flakey, I tried a usb 2.0 and that worked for me - that's why I suggested it. I just do home recording, so I power my PCs down overnight. USB 3 is supposed to be backward compatible, I'm not sure what the problem was with my USB 3.0 port.

Edited September 24, 2023 by rsinger

[BigT1]

Go to this site:   https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/pc-optimization-guide-for-windows-10/

Scroll down to USB power management... go through those steps.  WINDOWS is notorious for resetting this after an update.  This will screw with bus powered devices more than folks realize.  

I've use MOTU 828pre-es since windows 7 days... I've never had a problem with the drivers... but it is not bus powered, either...

[Thomas Happ]

Well I guess it was a fluke that switching to 2.0 completely fixed it - it reduced the crashes by maybe 75%; it used to be that switching to a sampled drumkit in Punch was enough to crash it 100% of the time, but now it's more like 25% of the time, which is better, but still not fixed.

4 hours ago, BigT1 said:

Go to this site:   https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/pc-optimization-guide-for-windows-10/

Scroll down to USB power management... go through those steps.  WINDOWS is notorious for resetting this after an update.  This will screw with bus powered devices more than folks realize.  

I've use MOTU 828pre-es since windows 7 days... I've never had a problem with the drivers... but it is not bus powered, either...

Unfortunately this didn't fix it for me, either.  I'm thinking I'll get a Clarrett + 2Pre and use the included power supply so it doesn't rely on bus power.