2023.09 Feedback

[Czeslaw]

15 hours ago, Keni said:

After crashing twice in a row attempting to freeze a track, opening CbB took near 30 seconds as opposed to the usual 3-5 or even long taking 10....

I can’t repeat this, Cake doesn’t crash and the project opens just as quickly.

[Keni]

2 hours ago, Vyacheslav said:

I can’t repeat this, Cake doesn’t crash and the project opens just as quickly.

I wonder what's going on here. I didn’t have any of these problems before this final update 1.

 

These are all things I do constantly.

Was there a windows 10 update this past week?

[Keni]

8 hours ago, David Baay said:

You can force CbB to use the smaller "chunk" size for offline rendering by setting a non-zero value for BounceBufSizeMsec in Configuration File. Most plugins actually do better with higer values, but you could set 3msec (132 samples at 44,1kHz). When BounceBufSizeMsec=0, the default, CbB uses the ASIO buffer size for offline rendering.

I've been running BounceBufSizeMsec=20  (960 samples at 48kHz) for years without a problem. I originally raised it because Rapture had issues at low buffer sizes.

FWIW, I played around with freezing Amptitube and didn't see a problem at any buffer size.

Thanks David...

I'll look at that too. I’m a bit reluctant to do a program wide change for this one plugin issue. First I will live with the forewarning and work arounds if/when I again use Amp5 instead of Amp4. I really miss Amp3. The only plugin (of consequence to me) lost on this machine moving from my older win8.1 DAW to this win10 DAW.

 

Addendum?

I just booted up, opened CbB (which opened at normal speed), loaded the song, unfroze all instruments/tracks, then carefully (?) froze one at a time leaving the Amp5 track for last. Shaky finger clicked to freeze the Amp5 track and it froze as expected...

 

So regardless of if anyone else is seeing this on their' systems, here it's becoming more certain that there's something going on between Amp5 and CbB where it doesn't like freezing at 512. I didn't try higher latency, but going back to 128 solves it every time.

 

Which isn't really too bad for me here as 512 is far too long for live performance so I'm rarely ever out there except when special circumstances arise. I'm almost always at 128. My system will run faster (64) but even with Xeon 12core with hyper-threading, and 128G RAM, so many of the recent generation of plugins have become far too demanding for more than carefully selected and setup uses. It seems my only other recourse is to sell my sould for an interface that has better latency performance than this old Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL I've been so (mostly) pleased with.

 

Is there a listing anywhere that compares relative latency of the various interfaces on the market. It seems that none specify any realistic info about such in their specs... or at least I've not spotted such. Interesting piece my heart is drifting towards (not that I can in any way afford it) is the new Arturia AudioFuse 16. But again no mention of latency specs. If it's a matter of USB bus speed, I'm stuck on a Mac trashcan with usb3.0/1 (I'm still uncertain seeing both quoted in machine specs and not finding such locally).

 

Sorry for the rant... It's one of those days for me...

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Keni

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, Keni said:

Interesting piece my heart is drifting towards (not that I can in any way afford it) is the new Arturia AudioFuse 16. But again no mention of latency specs. If it's a matter of USB bus speed, I'm stuck on a Mac trashcan with usb3.0/1 (I'm still uncertain seeing both quoted in machine specs and not finding such locally).

I recently discovered Julian Krause's Youtube channel. He does exhaustive analyses of audio interfaces and gives all the performance specs you can never get from the manufacturer. Below is his review of the AudioFuse 16 Rig. There's a chart at 22:13 that shows RTL of 8.1ms (389 samples) at 48kHz with  64-sample buffer - okay, but not great. The MOTU Ultrlite MK5 I was looking at recently did 6.9ms in his testing. But I'll be sticking with my trusty old PCIe-based MOTU that does 4.5ms (217 samples).  USB is always slower; I'm not sure whether the generation of the USB bus matters that much.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by David Baay

[Keni]

24 minutes ago, David Baay said:

I recently discovered Julian Krause's Youtube channel. He does exhaustive analyses of audio interfaces and gives all the performance specs you can never get from the manufacturer. Below is his review of the AudioFuse 16 Rig. There's a chart at 22:13 that shows RTL of 8.1ms (389 samples) at 48kHz with  64-sample buffer - okay, but not great. The MOTU Ultrlite MK5 I was looking at recently did 6.9ms in his testing. But I'll be sticking with my trusty old PCIe-based MOTU that does 4.5ms (217 samples).  USB is always slower; I'm not sure whether the generation of the USB bus matters that much.

 

Ah... many thanks here for many things.

I wonder how slow/long my 1818vsl is in comparison?

The USB generation makes big jump differences. I wish I could address this but at this point in my life I am now working with a Mac Pro "trashcan" so though it’s a decent machine unto itself, it’s connectivity is severely limited. No add in card capability. No pcie connectivity.

so I’m limited to TB2 USB3.(0/1 specs vary).

The TB2 is ever so slightly faster than that generation of USB3

 

...but I digress. My apology for getting off topic... again.

 

[Joerg Baermann]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

I recently discovered Julian Krause's Youtube channel. He does exhaustive analyses of audio interfaces and gives all the performance specs you can never get from the manufacturer. Below is his review of the AudioFuse 16 Rig. There's a chart at 22:13 that shows RTL of 8.1ms (389 samples) at 48kHz with  64-sample buffer - okay, but not great. The MOTU Ultrlite MK5 I was looking at recently did 6.9ms in his testing. But I'll be sticking with my trusty old PCIe-based MOTU that does 4.5ms (217 samples).  USB is always slower; I'm not sure whether the generation of the USB bus matters that much.

 

USB 3.1

Only usable for tracking though, mixing where plugins get added I go with higher buffer sizes.

With 96kHz and a 128-sample buffer it sits at 7.7ms

Edited October 25, 2023 by Joerg Baermann

[Sunshine Dreaming]

On 10/24/2023 at 9:11 PM, Keni said:

After crashing twice in a row attempting to freeze a track, opening CbB took near 30 seconds as opposed to the usual 3-5 or even long taking 10....

I was ready to relax about it and simply wait it out seeing 10 seconds appeared the longest, but this time 30?

 

Until now all worked more or less smoothless in regard to project loadings. But just now when I loaded a second project in an already open CWP project, the entire system was not responsive for a short while and even a "Server is busy" message popped up. And it took lot more time than usual. However, at least it did not crash and I was able to continue to use it. (For now.)

In the past (2023.09 (062) and earlier) I often loaded more than one (even bigger) project at the same time; And since a lot of their parts are frozen, they were working without any long waiting issue.

I cannot uninstall/reinstall anything until Saturday due to a deadline. So I hope this waiting issue goes away or is somehow system-related.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Sunshine Dreaming

[Keni]

34 minutes ago, Sunshine Dreaming said:

Until now all worked more or less smoothless in regard to project loadings. But just now when I loaded a second project in an already open CWP project, the entire system was not responsive for a short while and even a "Server is busy" message popped up. And it took lot more time than usual. However, at least it did not crash and I was able to continue to use it. (For now.)

In the past (2023.09 (062) and earlier) I often loaded more than one (even bigger) project at the same time; And since a lot of their parts are frozen, they were working without any long waiting issue.

I cannot uninstall/reinstall anything until Saturday due to a deadline. So I hope this waiting issue goes away or is somehow system-related.

Sorry to hear you’re having some trouble too.

...but my problem is with opening the program, not loading a project.

There is no roll back. This is it. Very shortly, all earlier versions will stop working.

 

[David Baay]

9 hours ago, Joerg Baermann said:

With 96kHz and a 128-sample buffer it sits at 7.7ms

Your screenhot is only showing the latency reported to CbB by the driver. Actual measured latency will probably reveal another millisecond at least for A/D/A conversion and sometimes more unreported hardware/firmware latency. And that latency needs to be compensated by a Manual Offset to get sample-accurate record compensation.

[Czeslaw]

21 hours ago, Keni said:

Was there a windows 10 update this past week?

No.

Quote

Is there a listing anywhere that compares relative latency of the various interfaces on the market. It seems that none specify any realistic info about such in their specs... or at least I've not spotted such. Interesting piece my heart is drifting towards (not that I can in any way afford it) is the new Arturia AudioFuse 16. But again no mention of latency specs. If it's a matter of USB bus speed, I'm stuck on a Mac trashcan with usb3.0/1 (I'm still uncertain seeing both quoted in machine specs and not finding such locally).

I once had an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra, I had to work on 512-1024, and even then with difficulty. With the purchase of RME Fireface UCX, the same projects run at 128-256.

All projects - 44.1kHz, 32 bit float. I work with Vienna Ensemble Pro on two computers, with up to 5-6 instances in each project.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Vyacheslav

[Keni]

2 hours ago, Vyacheslav said:

No.

I once had an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra, I had to work on 512-1024, and even then with difficulty. With the purchase of RME Fireface UCX, the same projects run at 128-256.

All projects - 44.1kHz, 32 bit float. I work with Vienna Ensemble Pro on two computers, with up to 5-6 instances in each project.

 I didn’t think so (Windows update)

You’re hauling quite a load!

Interesting settings. Do you have a particular reason for that? (32 bit float) I mean, I understand the increased depth and articulation expected with larger word size at equivalent speeds, but isn’t everything a tradeoff?

 

I currently do my recording work at 24/48 to have a movie film base rate as my standard. I have played with up to 64/48 but the small perceivable quality (for me) was far outweighed by system demands.

 

In this situation above (mine) Amp5 crashes CbB freezing at 512 here.

Freezes fine at 128/256 which is where I ordinarily operate. So I’m good. I don’t know how it performs at longer latencies as operating that heavy happens only in certain situations for me and I doubt will get into the picture. Simple enough to remember (for now?) to verify/reset latency when freezing Amp5! ?

 

BTW... on investigation I found a claim to the Audiobox 1818VSL latency of 6?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Keni

[AB99]

See my post below with the quote.  Thank you.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Alan Bachman

[AB99]

10 hours ago, David Baay said:

Your screenhot is only showing the latency reported to CbB by the driver. Actual measured latency will probably reveal another millisecond at least for A/D/A conversion and sometimes more unreported hardware/firmware latency. And that latency needs to be compensated by a Manual Offset to get sample-accurate record compensation.

How do you do your Manual Offset?

[David Baay]

1 hour ago, Alan Bachman said:

How do you do your Manual Offset?

Measure actual round-trip latency using the free CEntrance Latency Tester with an output patched directly to an input on your interface, and set Manual Offset as the Measured RTL - Reported RTL.

https://centrance.com/driverfolder/CE_LTU_37.zip

[Jordi]

On 10/25/2023 at 1:01 PM, Vyacheslav said:

For me, this setting is saved when I save the project.

Yes for me too, but when i load the project from the play list, this setting is disable

[Keni]

6 hours ago, David Baay said:

Measure actual round-trip latency using the free CEntrance Latency Tester with an output patched directly to an input on your interface, and set Manual Offset as the Measured RTL - Reported RTL.

https://centrance.com/driverfolder/CE_LTU_37.zip

Thanks David...

 

I used to have such a plugin but that was long ago. I'll try this one now. Off on the link...

 

[Dam102]

Hello everyone, since the last update and on all my projects Cakewalk starts to get slow with "distortion" noise then picks up back again, sometimes the UI/playback cursor is not reflecting what and where it should be playing, I have to stop and start playback for the system to refresh. Happens on any buffer size, any sample rate with or without plugins engaged, without any plugins loaded and even without any audio on the project.

Lastly and most importantly on the performance Audio CPU meter it is showing spikes on some cores  only where other cores are barely used or not used at all. Before this update the cores use was perfect and even across the board now it is unusable. 

I tested the system, the SSD, tried three different brand audio interfaces (Antelope Audio, MOTU and Hotone) everything and still behaves like that.

To confirm I did not change the software settings as the settings were perfect from stock as usually are other than the driver settings. 

Hopefully the CW Team can have a look into this behavior and solve it as I saw a few users popping up with the same issues.

Gigabyte Aorus 5 kE4

Processor    12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-12700H   2.30 GHz
Installed RAM    32.0 GB (31.7 GB usable)
Windows 11 Home
22H2

[Czeslaw]

20 hours ago, Keni said:

Interesting settings. Do you have a particular reason for that? (32 bit float) I mean, I understand the increased depth and articulation expected with larger word size at equivalent speeds, but isn’t everything a tradeoff?

Once upon a time I started working in this format simply based on the logic (perhaps a little erroneous) that 32 bits is better than 24.

Since then I have not changed the bitness, simply so that old projects could be loaded as before and without resetting the parameters of Cake.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Vyacheslav

[Keni]

3 minutes ago, Vyacheslav said:

Once upon a time I started working in this format simply based on the logic (perhaps a little erroneous) that 32 bits is better than 24.

Since then I have not changed the bitness, simply so that old projects could be loaded as before and without resetting the parameters of Cake.

I know the feeling.

32bit should have more depth and subtlety of definition.

64bit even more.

So for me it became a decision of balanced features.

I'd love to be running at 64bit (128?) but the resource consumption is far too great for the tonal improvement for me at this time.

I've got a feeling I will be running at 128 if I live that long! ?

 

[Keni]

12 hours ago, NAL said:

Hello everyone, since the last update and on all my projects Cakewalk starts to get slow with "distortion" noise then picks up back again, sometimes the UI/playback cursor is not reflecting what and where it should be playing, I have to stop and start playback for the system to refresh. Happens on any buffer size, any sample rate with or without plugins engaged, without any plugins loaded and even without any audio on the project.

Lastly and most importantly on the performance Audio CPU meter it is showing spikes on some cores  only where other cores are barely used or not used at all. Before this update the cores use was perfect and even across the board now it is unusable. 

I tested the system, the SSD, tried three different brand audio interfaces (Antelope Audio, MOTU and Hotone) everything and still behaves like that.

To confirm I did not change the software settings as the settings were perfect from stock as usually are other than the driver settings. 

Hopefully the CW Team can have a look into this behavior and solve it as I saw a few users popping up with the same issues.

Gigabyte Aorus 5 kE4

Processor    12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-12700H   2.30 GHz
Installed RAM    32.0 GB (31.7 GB usable)
Windows 11 Home
22H2

My first thought due to my own experience...

 

Check plugins...? Often problems develop for uncounted reasons

 

Hmmm. Win11? I haven't used yet.