Sound Canvas VA Bank change

[Choso]

Hey, i'm still newbie trying to deal with MIDI instruments.

I'm having a problem with Sound Canvas VA in Cakewalk.  I can't change the instrument bank, so i can only use the first one. Tried to change it in the midi track parameters or in the event lists, and in both the banks never shows in Cakewalk.

I tried the same with TTS-1 and it works fine, just with Sound Canvas VA it doesn't work, it just shows me the bank 0.

 

Here's the difference from when i'm using the TTS-1 and when it works fine:

 

thanks for your attention 

[JnTuneTech]

My guess is that, since the Sound Canvas VA has multiple internal instrument maps, unlike the GM 1 bank/patch defaults in TTS-1, it isn't possible to do a good job of linking the instrument names in banks (kind of ironic since Roland helped define GM MIDI) - and the alternate instrument maps probably don't conform to common GM banks that Cakewalk has built in either.

 

-As in the screenshot, this plugin has its own GUI for changing the per-channel instrument sounds, some sorted additionally by category as well, here called a Tone List, each of which are defined by emulations of the original Roland hardware models of the Sound Canvas series they replicate, many of which probably didn't conform to GM standards, or are variations - duplicates better represented by the model series, rather than banks anyway.  -And though the TTS-1 has quite an extensive set of instruments/samples across its many banks, it seems to be set up to work as a straight GM MIDI sound set, with no reference to a particular piece of legacy hardware, per se.

So, as it is, we cannot use the old GM MIDI bank/patch selection method to call these SC-VA sounds up visibly in CbB -from the track itself. The sound names do still show up visibly in the plugin GUI though, as you change the patch number in the track. I do know basically, that when I have selected the GM Tone List - Map in the plugin GUI - SYSTEM menu, and then selected the appropriate CbB MIDI track-channel-patch number (adjusting for 1 number offset as Initial = 1), in my project I got the GM default sound I wanted on that channel, and it holds when I save & re-open a project later.  -That changes if you select GM2 or GS (all Roland GM variants) in the plugin - and that latter one has all the various Sound Canvas hardware emulation banks/categories -and so then it gets confusing  - for me!

 

Apparently the extensive sound/category/instrument variations, in groups of hardware emulation used, etc., can all be selected via MIDI commands, which are mapped out in the downloadable PDF manual - which for me worked just fine when I clicked on the SC-VA plugin GUI - OPTION button HELP (yes please!). - It is of course many, many pages long, so have some spare time set aside for using it that way - but often we tend to overlook the actual documentation... I know.  -But wow, this plugin has zillions of instrument/sample choices, so many that trying to decide sometimes gets me sounding a lot like the SC-8820 Map - FX - Laughing patch on a loop...  But I digress.

 

-And so, in practice, for this plugin, I recommend, and usually just use "None" in the CbB MIDI track bank/patch selection, and then set the instruments per channel manually in the plugin GUI, and again, it holds when I save the project. Fairly quick and easy.  -For me anyway!    -Hope that helps!!

Edited August 25, 2023 by JnTuneTech
clarity & additional findings

[Choso]

Thanks for your answer, it was illuminating.

Is good to see that you also had some same experiences as me by downloading the manual PDF and get surprised by the amount of resources it have.

I was trying to use the bank/patch changes to change the instruments while the song is playing. It's a little bit frustrating when i try to listen to the old SC-88pro Roland's demo collection and it doesn't sound so good.

But thanks a lot for you answer, it helped me and it's really informative.

[User 905133]

If you are using a VST3 and they have a VST2 version, do Bank Switch Commands + Program Changes work with the VST2 version? I don't have the Sound Canvas VA, but I have found with some plug-ins VST2 version work even if the VST3 version doesn't.

Note: I have used several Roland Sound modules (hardware) that use variations of the Sound Canvas tone sets.  I think the only software version I have is the old Edirol Sound Canvas.

Edited August 25, 2023 by User 905133
added (hardware) for the sake of clarity

[JnTuneTech]

5 hours ago, User 905133 said:

I have found with some plug-ins VST2 version work even if the VST3 version doesn't.

That's a really good point, and it's true, VST3 has mostly done away with the older GM MIDI patch change options. -In this case however, there is only a VST2 at present for Sound Canvas VA, but as I explained earlier, it also doesn't actually follow the old system, on purpose, due to the design of the synth. -It will respond to bank/patch changes in basic GM mode, but to switch to all the other sound options during playback, you have to program using CC changes, using the provided map in the manual.

[msmcleod]

VST2 should definitely be receiving bank changes - it was one of the first things I fixed when I joined the dev team back in 2019.

In order to get a complete patch list, I'd recommend using the Patch Browser in the Inspector, and setting the "List Patches From" to Roland GS:

[Zaid Myers]

I have been using Edirol Sound Canvas for a long time. Very good for midi files. The guitar is a successful instrument. Unfortunately, it hasn't been updated in years.

[Ronny.G]

On 8/24/2023 at 8:01 AM, Choso said:

I'm having a problem with Sound Canvas VA in Cakewalk.  I can't change the instrument bank, so i can only use the first one. Tried to change it in the midi track parameters or in the event lists, and in both the banks never shows in Cakewalk.

I tried the same with TTS-1 and it works fine, just with Sound Canvas VA it doesn't work, it just shows me the bank 0.

The problem it's exactly the same also for me.

The problem is related to instrument maps. They can be assigned to external midi instruments output but not to an internal vst instruments midi output (only drum maps can be manually assigned to an internal vst output). You can partially bypass the problem as msmcleod suggested using the patch browser.

In any case consider that default patch browser have only a GS instruments definition map that is equal to the SC-55 map of Sound Canvas VA.

To fully have all the 1600 patches of the SC-8820 module emulation you need to import the 8820 map from the roland.ins file.

For doing this you need to have an active midi out device (that can be removed after) then you can "define" an instrument and import from roland.ins the Roland SC-D70 and D70 Drumsets. You have then to remove all the other roland sc that are imported (don't know why...) and leave only the sc-8820 sets or you have double names in the patch browser. If you want you can change the name for the instrument from sc-d70 and also export the new created .ins You can also open it with a text editor and change some names like "88 series controllers" if you want. After this you can select the SC-8820 and SC-8820 Drumsets from the Patch browser. Unfortunately default patch numbers order are from 0 to 99 with 100-127 after the number 10 and everytime you open the patch browser, you have to reorder the patches for have them displayed from 0 to 127. You can remove the midi out from devices if you don't need it anymore and you use only internal vsts.

Obviously the best would be if we can manually assign these maps easily also to software internal vst instrument output in some way, to show and select them also in the midi track parameters, when there is some problem in receive patches and banks from the vst instrument (and with vst instruments is pretty common) like in this case where the vst don't expose correctly all its bank and patches and we are left with only bank0 and empty patch names.

Edited March 4 by Ronny.G