InstrEd Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Good point Jim. These simple things that us hobbyist tend to forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartabartfast Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said: Noise-floor on a dedicated audio interface with external A/D D/A can be very significantly lower than onboard audio. ie: Realtek isn't going to get anywhere close to average noise-floor of -118dB. You may not notice a 12dB difference on a single track... but multiply that across 24 tracks of audio... and it's an appreciable difference. Like pulling a veil of noise off the project... Even dedicated audio interfaces that have A/D D/A inside the PC rarely achieve noise-floor better than ~104dB (usually closer to -100dB). I would think how you view this issue depends on how you are using your audio interface. For recording, the noise that comes into and is generated by the A/D converter is going to be additive ie 24 tracks of input will each have the noise of a single track in the digital domain, and 24 tracks will, when "mixed" digitally (added) will have 24 times as much noise as a single track alone. They will also have a higher "signal" in the digital domain, which can mitigate the audible noise relative to the signal so that it is not as noticeable as you might figure from simple addition of the noise. If you are going to be mixing dozens of recorded sound tracks, then minimizing noise prior to arrival at and generated within the A/D is likely to improve the final sound significantly. I suspect that even Realtek can still produce quality as good as the multiple magnetic tape bounces some of us grew up listening to on AM radios. But many of us use an audio interface only to listen to originally digital "audio" generated by softsynths etc. On output I would have thought that the "audio" of however many tracks you are dealing with remained as a digital internal representation until the mixed signal/data is sent to the D/A of the audio interface/card/chipset. In that case, any noise you encounter is generated from/applied to that (usually stereo) mixed digital output at the D/A conversion point and beyond. So that noise is going to be pretty much the same whether you are dealing with a single track or 24 tracks in the digital realm. In any event, that digital sound/data remains pristine regardless of how you hear the output from your sound card on playback/conversion, and it will sound less noisy on less noisy equipment if you play it there. So for that purpose, the noise floor of your audio interface is not all that critical. Edited September 4, 2019 by slartabartfast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 3 hours ago, slartabartfast said: But many of us use an audio interface only to listen to originally digital "audio" generated by softsynths etc. On output I would have thought that the "audio" of however many tracks you are dealing with remained as a digital internal representation until the mixed signal/data is sent to the D/A of the audio interface/card/chipset. In that case, any noise you encounter is generated from/applied to that (usually stereo) mixed digital output at the D/A conversion point and beyond. So that noise is going to be pretty much the same whether you are dealing with a single track or 24 tracks in the digital realm. In any event, that digital sound/data remains pristine regardless of how you hear the output from your sound card on playback/conversion, and it will sound less noisy on less noisy equipment if you play it there. So for that purpose, the noise floor of your audio interface is not all that critical. If used solely to monitor virtual-instruments, the noise-floor of the audio interface will certainly have a much less profound impact. Ironically, the most popular audio interface with our professional composer clients, the Antelope Orion (due to its high fidelity and excellent clock). Almost all of our professional composer clients (TV/Film/Games) are using the Orion. Specs here: https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/orion-32-gen-3/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user 905133 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 (edited) On 9/3/2019 at 3:16 PM, Jim Roseberry said: Noise-floor on a dedicated audio interface with external A/D D/A can be very significantly lower than onboard audio. ie: Realtek isn't going to get anywhere close to average noise-floor of -118dB. [snip] Even dedicated audio interfaces that have A/D D/A inside the PC rarely achieve noise-floor better than ~104dB (usually closer to -100dB). This thread was started in an attempt to find a solution for a specific set of circumstances. Is there a thread of a more general nature (here or elsewhere) to discuss such things as noise, noise floor, performance, etc. of MOBO sound chips, PCI sound cards, firewire and usb external audio devices, etc. (i.e., not opinions on specific devices, but more along the lines of (1) what to look for if changing/selecting audio devices and (2) factors to consider in deciding (a) to change and (b) to not change. 2 images showing approx -130db noise floor deleted from ancient post Edited April 5 by User 905133 to remove ancient images; to add a segment of the graphic where the numbers are legible (I hope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 The old Cakewalk forums had a dedicated "Hardware" forum. It would be nice if that were implemented here. ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartabartfast Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 5 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said: Ironically, the most popular audio interface with our professional composer clients, the Antelope Orion (due to its high fidelity and excellent clock). Almost all of our professional composer clients (TV/Film/Games) are using the Orion. Specs here: https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/orion-32-gen-3/ I expect there is some combination of gear snobbery and tax advantage involved here. Why anyone composing in the box would need 32 channels of conversion is something of a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Roseberry Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 38 minutes ago, slartabartfast said: I expect there is some combination of gear snobbery and tax advantage involved here. Why anyone composing in the box would need 32 channels of conversion is something of a mystery. It's the clock and fidelity. Keep in mind that some of these composers also track instruments (including large drum-kits). Another thing to keep in mind is that professional composers don't necessarily deliver a final stereo "bounced down" mix. Depending on the project, they may provide stems or multi-track audio... to be mixed on a large-format console with the rest of the film/dialog/EFX/etc. Yet another scenario to consider is that these composers sometimes make use of high-end outboard processing (channel-strips, reverb, dynamics, Axe-FX, Kemper, re-amping, etc). Those extra inputs/outputs allow far more flexibility in these scenarios. Just talked to one client yesterday who absolutely loves the sound. This guy is a rock-star... who now composes for TV/Film. He's got both commercial and home studios. His commercial facility is full of amazing gear and set-up to track high profile players/singers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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