Mixing with headphones vs monitors

[greg54]

2 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

The real problem isn't headphones or speakers, it's that every playback system will be different. These days, the differences are even more radical then they were a few decades ago - earbuds, sound bars, traditional speakers, portable bluetooth speakers, etc. Sadly, one of the main ways people listen to music is through computer speakers and even (the horror!) laptop/tablet/smartphone speakers. I believe earbuds are the next most common. No matter what the music sounds like to you, it won't sound that way to others.

I used to mix on speakers and do a reality check on headphones. These days, I mix on headphones and do a reality check on speakers because I believe more listeners will be listening on headphones, or otherwise compromised playback systems.

If you mix on headphones, I feel the Sonarworks system is essential. Most headphones "hype" the sound in one way or another. When you flatten the response, whether with Sonarworks or something like the Slate VSX, the sound will seem flat and dull. This is as it should be. Aim for a high quality, balanced, accurate mix. The consumer playback system will add the hype.

The best you can hope for is a mix that sounds a little bit bad on everything haha, rather than superb on some playback systems and like crap on others. One trick I use to help rock mixes translate is tape saturation on bass. The added harmonics allow the bass to be heard better on systems that can't reproduce the fundamental frequencies. Psychoacoustically, your ear fills in the missing fundamental when it hears the harmonics. Because bass lines are usually single notes, you don't get unpleasant intermodulation distortion.

When I "finish" a mix after using speakers and headphones, the reality is that it's not finished. I check it out on a Samsung S23, IK Multimedia iLoud, MacBook Pro, YouTube's nasty data compression, and a Honda car stereo. If I can hear all the elements I want to hear on those systems, then the mix is truly finished.

(P.S. If you want to hear a mix that translates well over just about anything, set the time machine for 1979 and check out Tom Petty's "Damn the Torpedoes." It doesn't matter whether you like the music or not, just listen to how it uses the audio spectrum to create something eminently translatable.)

 

Great advice.   Thanks, Craig!

[greg54]

Looking into Slate VSX and Sonarworks.  Anyone have a preference?  From what I see, Slate VSX seems pretty simple.  Reviews are good.

[Craig Anderton]

VSX asnd Sonarworks are quite different. VSX is designed to emulate the experience of listening on speakers in a physical studio (like the Waves NX series of plugins). Sonarworks comes with curves for a ton of different headphones that flatten the headphone response. It's not a perfect process because of manufacturing tolerances on headphones, but with a quality set of headphones, that's not an issue. VSX includes headphones, so that eliminates one variable. However, I've found you need a decent headphone amp to get the best performance from the VSX. A lot of the headphone amps in audio interfaces are underpowered, and I the VSX was a disappointment until I hooked it up with a good headphone amp. It made a huge difference.

The VSX system emulates several different rooms, but it also emulates a flat response and a Sennheiser 650, which is really close to flat. It also has some emulations of cell phone, car, etc. although the Audified Mixchecker  plugin does a good job of emulating real-world music butchering systems  . The full Sonarworks version can also tune your speakers, which is a useful addition. I have Sonarworks and VSX, and wrote a review of the previous version of Sonarworks (Reference 4, which is quite similar to the newer ID version). It's in the Library section of craiganderton.org.

One other VERY important aspect I forget to mention: mixing at low volume for the bulk of your mixing time is the best approach. Your ears have a natural limiting effect at high levels, and there's the Fletcher-Munson curve to contend with. If the sound is a little bass- and treble-shy at low volumes, and a little too hot at higher levels, then you've done the best you can. After mixing at low volumes, turn up the level as a reality check. If the bass and treble are too loud, go back and trim them a bit.

You have no idea about the levels of the playback system over which your music will play. The one thing I can guarantee is that every single listener will hear a different mix--and it won't be the one you did!

[greg54]

I think I'll go with Slate VSX.   I have a headphone amp that I like, so that shouldn't be a problem.  I will check out your articles.

Thanks!

[Will.]

21 hours ago, greg54 said:

I just ordered these exact ones ?

They work great. Place them behind you and you will hear how different your room will sound. 

Heres the tricky part you need to experiment with. Place them next to you and behind you to find out where your speakers translate the best for you. In a wide space, or narrow space. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Will.

[Will.]

7 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

as a note - to shift the modal response of the room - those dividers will need to be solid / 

That nylon material they are made with, actually acts as both diffuser and absorbers. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, greg54 said:

Looking into Slate VSX and Sonarworks.  Anyone have a preference?  From what I see, Slate VSX seems pretty simple.  Reviews are good.

You might want to have a look at the following as well before you decide,

https://www.dsoniq.com/

https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-vhs/

https://www.acustica-audio.com/shop/products/SIENNACOMA

https://www.toneboosters.com/tb_morphit_v1.html

https://www.dear-reality.com/products/dearvr-mix

best of luck.

[Craig Anderton]

53 minutes ago, Artie Choke said:

You might want to have a look at the following as well before you decide

There are two unique aspects to Sonarworks and Slate VSX. Sonarworks has a version that includes speaker calibration. Slate VSX removes a variable by including headphones designed specifically for the system, but of course, that adds to the cost.

In general, the plugins that emulate studios/rooms I find to be fun for listening, but (personal bias alert!) for mixing I want a flat response, with no added binaural/spatial characteristics. However, if you don't have a decent speaker setup, they can provide reality checks for what your mixes may sound like over speakers.

[Guest]

The parts you don't desire can be disabled in some if not all, I can't recall atm, leaving you with just the flat response for your selected Headphone profile you desire. I own SW ID as well as all the above, it's just my memory that is a little shaky. I usually don't use SW ID that much, or any of it's previous versions except for to compare, as I do with the others as well.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Artie Choke

[Kevin Walsh]

I've been using Slate VSX since version 1 and I love them. I also use them for most of my listening, which, as has been pointed out by others, really helps. I'm no professional mixer (or any other kind of professional when it comes to making music) but since I've had VSX it's been MUCH easier to put together a mix that I immediately find playable on my room stereo and in my truck and my wife's car. That's something I was unable to do before VSX. 

One other thing; I've had a few problems with earlier versions of the headphones. Two pairs over the course of about three years broke. And every time, a simple email to Slate resulted in a message: "New phone on their way!" Slate has astoundingly superb customer service. The final pair I received are significantly better structurally, and I've had no problems since receiving those. 

Enjoy your new VSX phones, you will be amazed at how effective they are.

I'm wearing my VSX headset now listening to Tom Petty's "Damn the Torpedos".

Bliss.

[greg54]

6 hours ago, Kevin Walsh said:

I've been using Slate VSX since version 1 and I love them. I also use them for most of my listening, which, as has been pointed out by others, really helps. I'm no professional mixer (or any other kind of professional when it comes to making music) but since I've had VSX it's been MUCH easier to put together a mix that I immediately find playable on my room stereo and in my truck and my wife's car. That's something I was unable to do before VSX. 

One other thing; I've had a few problems with earlier versions of the headphones. Two pairs over the course of about three years broke. And every time, a simple email to Slate resulted in a message: "New phone on their way!" Slate has astoundingly superb customer service. The final pair I received are significantly better structurally, and I've had no problems since receiving those. 

Enjoy your new VSX phones, you will be amazed at how effective they are.

I'm wearing my VSX headset now listening to Tom Petty's "Damn the Torpedos".

Bliss.

Good to know.  Thanks!

[Ando]

room simulations are fun and you can start testing this way without spending a lot of money

 

https://plugins4free.com/plugin/3772/

https://plugins4free.com/plugin/2465/

 

mixing with headphones can introduce some manageable problems, but the room simulations really help with something very important that you miss when using headphones: the crossfadefeed

 

Edit: now i've realised that the right word is crossFEED  lol

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Ando

[Terry Kelley]

This is Worker speaking. Hello.

[Craig Anderton]

On 7/16/2023 at 1:37 PM, Ando said:

mixing with headphones can introduce some manageable problems, but the room simulations really help with something very important that you miss when using headphones: the crossfade

It's not difficult to do this in Cakewalk with delays, buses, and filters. I'm pretty sure I wrote about how to do this at some point, but I can't find it.

[charles kasler]

I've tried several of the room sims and to be honest I think I get just as much out of checking my mix in mono. I do like the idea of the mix checker app that Craig mentioned, hearing how it will sound on several different low-fi systems

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:28 PM, Craig Anderton said:

 However, I've found you need a decent headphone amp to get the best performance from the VSX. A lot of the headphone amps in audio interfaces are underpowered, and I the VSX was a disappointment until I hooked it up with a good headphone amp. It made a huge difference.

I'm a little underwhelmed with VSX which I picked up a few months ago, they are a handy check but I've not worked on them extensively. The only one which gives me the illusion of being in front of a real speaker is the mixcube emulation probbaly because it's mono but I already own a real one so that's of minimal benefit.

 The reason I got them though is there's a new baby about to arrive into our family who's room will be above my studio for the next couple of years and I need to be able to get on with mixing work without disturbing anyone.

I was interested in what headphone amp you used with them that had made such a big difference as I will need to start using them in earnest any day now and would like to squeeze the most performance I can from them.  I currently just use the built in Audient ID4 headphone amp and I'm on APS 2020 Klassik's with Sound ID correction as my nearfieds.    

I've spent more time audition VSX 4 recently as they just released their Systemwide plugin which makes it easier to play a whole bunch of references. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Mark Morgon-Shaw

[Ando]

Quote

On 7/16/2023 at 3:37 PM, Ando said:

mixing with headphones can introduce some manageable problems, but the room simulations really help with something very important that you miss when using headphones: the crossfeed

 

just as a complement: there are some SPL dacs and headphone amps that have this function.

 

 

[57Gregy]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:55 AM, Mark Morgon-Shaw said:

 The reason I got them though is there's a new baby about to arrive into our family who's room will be above my studio for the next couple of years

Congratulations! I assure you when the kid is 15 the kid won't worry about disturbing you.

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

1 hour ago, 57Gregy said:

Congratulations! I assure you when the kid is 15 the kid won't worry about disturbing you.

Thanks - not my kid, it's my Son's & Daughter in Law who live with us. Hopefully be gone in a couple of years if the house prices / interest rates revert to anything sensible

[greg54]

Update:  I bought the Slate VSX and got panels to make the room smaller.   Both made a big difference.

When I checked my mix through VSX, I heard mistakes.  I also heard reference tracks better so have been able get my mixes sounding better, closer to the reference tracks.

And when I listen to the songs through my monitors, the panels (I put blankets over them) bring the songs closer (if that makes sense) because the sound doesn't travel so far to the back of the room.

Great suggestions in here.  These things may not be for everyone, but they really helped me.  ?

Edited July 25, 2023 by greg54