Arpeggiator not in Sync with kbd

[Emanu3le85]

when I play the integrated arpeggiator of the midi channel with the master keyboard there is no synchronized lock and it goes out of the loop then it often skips some notes, I don't have buffer or other problems, thanks

[57Gregy]

What are the integrated arpeggiator, the MIDI channel and the master keyboard?
Why don't you have buffer or other problems? (i.e. what audio interface or sound card are you using, what driver mode, etc.)
Have you bounced the track to clips or tracks or applied trimming? If so, do the skipped notes return on the bounced/trimmed track?

[Emanu3le85]

Hi, the situation is very simple, when i try to play live with my behringher umx610 any vst through the arpeggiator which is inside the midi channels of cakewalk there is no sync, it does not lock to the clock I use a motu m4 48000, 512 samples, asio motu drivers.

I don't have these problems only if a vsti has the arpeggiator already inside

[User 905133]

Not 100% sure, but I am wondering if "integrated arpeggiator of the midi channel" (and the "arpeggiator which is inside the midi channels of cakewalk") is referring to what I have been calling the "Inspector-based Arpeggiator."  

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Recording.17.html

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Recording.18.html

Edited April 30, 2023 by User 905133
to add documentation links

[Emanu3le85]

Yes exactly, i call It Integrated Arpeggiator but maybe is not correct

[User 905133]

15 minutes ago, Emanu3le85 said:

Yes exactly, i call It Integrated Arpeggiator but maybe is not correct

Yeah--different people use different names (such as the "built-in arpeggiator").  I used "Inspector-based" so I would remember where I found it. I think its just call the Arpeggiator. 

If you are using basic audio loops, those have their own BPM.  The Cakewalk/track/built-in/integrated arpeggiator uses the host/DAW tempo.  That might be why they are out of sync.  If you are using soft synths with their own arpeggiators, see if the soft synth has a sync-to-host-tempo parameter/switch. 

I haven't done that kind of thing in a while, but that's where I would look, if I understand what your issue is.

There are also Groove Clips / Acidized Loops, but I haven't used them.  There should be a number of tutorials.  I just did a search and found this one, but there are others, too.

Edited April 30, 2023 by User 905133
edits

[Emanu3le85]

Thanks for your patience, I've tried them all but to with no succes, I'm posting my settings here

Edited April 30, 2023 by Emanu3le85

[OutrageProductions]

Try this experiment:

Create a chord of one measure whole notes, copy it to measure 2. Set a <Latch> arp pattern (with any other settings that you want) in the midi track inspector, select the clip in bar 2 (only) and bounce to clip. Then inspect the actual note positions in the PRV to see if it is printing in the wrong space, or if it is some sort of latency issue from elsewhere (like this):

Edited April 30, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[Emanu3le85]

Hi Outrageproductions

i tried your suggestion with the latch and arabesque pattern i applied to the clip and all the notes are in time, in fact when i have recorded the take , it runs in time, in playback ,the problem occurs when i play the keyboard live

Edited April 30, 2023 by Emanu3le85

[OutrageProductions]

So then, for the most part, the arpeggiator is working correctly. Eliminates that part of the chain.

 It may have to do with an input latency issue, not immediately evident from all your preference settings.

To rule out any particular instrument, have you tried input with something simple like the TTS1 on a piano patch?

Also may be useful to DL and run MIDI OX while playing input to see if there are any clues there.

Additional thought; are you using input quantize when playing? Are you playing chords in that are time justified (full ¼, ½, or whole) notes.

TBH, I don't know that I've ever engaged the midi arpeggiator until after the chords have been recorded. 

>edit: I just tried it on a piano IRT and it works, but the input performance HAS TO BE EXACT or the arp can get off in timing.

Edited April 30, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[Emanu3le85]

I tried it now and nothing changes even with tts 1, I feel that it is a problem of locking to the internal clock because the bpm follows them minimally, or a memory problem, do you have any other suggestions? Thank you

[OutrageProductions]

I highly doubt that CbB is having any internal clocking issues, or you would have bigger problems.

Have you tried to turn OFF the MMCSS in <Preferences><Playback and Recording>? (Wild guess...)

Edited April 30, 2023 by OutrageProductions

[Emanu3le85]

I can't change the MME mode in playback and recording, the window is not active. I downloaded midi ox but i don't understand how it can help me i saw that it receives all the signals from the midi devices

[Andres Medina]

Hi,

I do use your same Midi controller (UMX610).

I did a few tests and found out this:

1. If I play the keyboard with the arpeggiator engaged, it follows the tempo without issues, AS LONG as my playing is accurate. In fact, I got better results by playing a little ahead of the metronome (like 1/16 ahead). Arpeggiators needs perfect input to work right. For playing live I guess you really have to master your playing technique to get consistent results.

2. I got even better results if I engaged the input quantize, for the above reason.

I tried several tempos and it followed the tempo without issues, even using tempo changes created in the tempo track.

Hope it helps to narrow down the culprit...!

[Emanu3le85]

Hi Andrés thanks for your help, i tried for a long time to play the arpeggiator of the hardware synthesizers without midi synch with the daw (only synch the BPM clock of the synth to the daw BPM), and it was enough that i was precise on the trigger and they played in time even without synch, but with the cakewalk arpeggiator it is not the same thing, I can be precise but there is not a minimum of attack to the clock, and even if you trigger in time after a while it comes out, even with the synchronization at 1/16

[bvideo]

Does the arpeggiator give options for sync to beat? Or does it simply clock each sequence starting when that key is pressed? If the latter, then the arp is just reflecting how much out of sync your keyboard technique is. For on-the-fly playing on an arp, it seems like it might be preferable to have an auto-quantizer enabled.

[Andres Medina]

 

8 hours ago, Emanu3le85 said:

i tried for a long time to play the arpeggiator of the hardware synthesizers without midi synch with the daw (only synch the BPM clock of the synth to the daw BPM), and it was enough that i was precise on the trigger and they played in time even without synch

So, playing live, you just matched the tempo of the synth and the DAW, and it worked fine, but using the CW arpeggiator does not.

mmmm, I'm not sure about what is going on, but I would check your audio driver buffer settings, as it really affects the minimum but at times noticeable delay between hitting your keyboard and the actual sound produced. If your settings are too high (over 128 samples), this latency could be the reason why you hear a difference between you hardware synth (which has 0 latency), and the DAW.

Not 100% sure about this, but is worth a try.

[Emanu3le85]

x bvideo : yes there is an auto quantization in input in the arpeggiator but it is irrelevant, it triggers wrong keyboard notes and doesn't keep them in time or at least tries to follow the bpm. x Andres : yes I'm at 512 samples in fact, to hear the midi clips of an external synth in time, I increase the mtc offset to 46.00 ms and then remove it otherwise I have problems on the grid with the other instruments vsti , so why don't I have any sync problems with the Reason Studio arpeggiator (RPG8)? even if a vsti has the internal arpeggiator i have no problems, just with cakewalk's one

Edited May 1, 2023 by Emanu3le85

[Emanu3le85]

you're the winner, i tried 62 samples(a red exclamation mark appeared on the asio panel of the sound card) and finally it locks to the clock perfectly anytime i press the note on kbd, i think the problem is my PC, now yes...❤️

Edited May 1, 2023 by Emanu3le85

[Andres Medina]

2 hours ago, Emanu3le85 said:

you're the winner, i tried 62 samples(a red exclamation mark appeared on the asio panel of the sound card) and finally it locks to the clock perfectly anytime i press the note on kbd, i think the problem is my PC, now yes...❤️

Good to know! 

Yes, latency is much better now, but still... there IS latency.