Export/Save Kurzweil K2500x Sounds?

[Sal Sorice]

I have a working Kurzweil K2500x 88 key keyboard (circa 1997) that I used to record a bunch of instrumental stuff in Cakewalk. I've since moved on to my Arturia mkII keyboard. The K2500x has a lot of nice sounds that I'd like to keep if possible.

Does anyone know if it's possible to "export" or "convert" those K2500 sounds/patches so that they can be used without having the keyboard physically connected via MIDI / powered on?

[Max Arwood]

Samplit

and 

samplerobot

These can copy the sounds to waves. You would also need a playback sampler synth like Kontakt  full version (not the free one) to play the sounds  

 

[Sal Sorice]

Thanks Max Arwood!  I have full version of Kontakt. Will look into that and hope to get other recommendations as well. Not well versed in MIDI, sampling, etc.

[Max Arwood]

Both of these do automatic sampling. Just sit back and relax. 

[msmcleod]

+1 to SampleRobot.  I used this to sample all of my hardware instruments.  There is a bit of a learning curve, but once you get around that you can set it up and let it do its thing.

Don't underestimate the time it takes to sample though... it takes around 24 hours to sample a whole instrument (128 patches, 6 velocity layers, 2 keys per octave).  For this reason, I have SampleRobot installed on an old laptop so I can leave it overnight.

For each patch you'll need to decide whether they're a one-shot (e.g. piano) or looped (e.g. pad),  the length of the sample you'll need, and if you need to sample the release time, how long that should be.  SampleRobot will take care of finding the loop points, but you'll still need to set up all of the patches up front ready for sampling. For 128 patches, I find this takes around an hour to audition all of the patches, write down the looping/lengths, and then enter all of this into SampleRobot.

SampleRobot can also remove the silence from one-shot samples that are recorded with a length that is too long, however bear in mind that setting too long a length can increase the time to sample significantly (10 octaves at 2 keys per octave * 6 layers = 120 samples).  Adding an extra second to the sample length will increase the time to sample a patch by 2 minutes.

Once everything is sampled, you can export the samples in pretty much any format you require.  Normally I use SoundFont 2.0 as this suits my workflow with SampleLord ( a 32 bit SF2 player which works really well with my hardware SMPro V-Machine VSTi player).  Exporting as Kontakt is just as easy though... and as long as you leave the SampleRobot project/samples where they are, you can re-export at any time.

 

[Sal Sorice]

Thanks for the helpful advice.  Never heard of SampleRobot - will have to give it a try. Makes me think that there might be samples of the K2500x already out there. I will poke around the web adn see if they already exist.

[John Vere]

This topic got me thinking about how it would be cool to have samples from my Korg 05r/w instead of it cluttering up my workspace. Then I saw the price for Sample Robot and that’s way too much for me for the few sounds I’d really like to keep. But if you figure out what your time is worth it’s a bargain. 

Here is one way to do it for free.  

Create a project and insert a midi track. Record or draw all the notes chromatically and edit to 1/2 ? notes at a set velocity spaced 1 measure apart?  
Copy the track a few times and change the velocity so you have as many velocity options as needed. Set these midi tracks to output to the hardware. Mute all but one. 
Now insert as many audio tracks as needed and save this as a template. 

Now record the hardware using a track for each velocity and save as naming the project for the patch. Make sure to check the copy audio box.
Option at this point is instead of saving just export the tracks as stems and name those. 

Delete the audio and start again with new patch. 
That was easy. Now the fun part. You will have to chop those exported wave files or with in the project  into short clips of each note and top and tail them correctly.  Probably quicker in Wave Lab than Cakewalk. 
I’ve made my own samples before and the most important part is topping it as close as possible to the  waveform starting point.  
I guess in cakewalk you could do this with splitting and then drag the clip to a folder outside of cakewalk and name it. But anyway it will be a huge amount of time to sample even a few patches. I think I’ll just keep my hardware alive. 

[bitflipper]

I was fortunate enough to sample my favorite patch from my old Yamaha MO8 right before it was stolen. Jeez, I wish I'd had the foresight to get the electric piano and sax patches!

But to emphasize Mark's comment, it is going to be more tedious than you think. Though not exactly rocket surgery, it is time-consuming. But also fun.

Note that when I did it I had no tools such as SampleRobot to help. Just Kontakt. It has all you really need, but you will have to become familiar with velocity maps and group editing, things that casual Kontakt users never need to explore. The good news is that older synths like your Kurzweil , due to memory constraints, had far fewer velocity layers than most current commercial Kontakt libraries. That means fewer samples to import.

[bitflipper]

 

[Sal Sorice]

Thanks all!

I ran across this on Ebay. Not sure if it is all the K2500 sounds or not (or even if it is legit). Seems so, as the company has been around a while. Anyone have any idea if this would be worth the minor $10 investment?

Kurzweil K2500 Synthesizer Sample Library: 3,800 High Quality WAV Samples | eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275085394293

[John Vere]

Heck of a deal if you ask me and the rep on E bay seems real good. I'd jump on it.  

I found that the only VST for my Korg would cost me about $145.  $10 is a steaL. 

[Max Arwood]

Sample robot $273) is great but don’t overlook the competition Samplit 2 for only ($139) 

https://www.soundlib.com

Both these two do about the same thing. I have used both of them and one other. I use  sample robot and Samplit 2. I tend to use samplit 2 more because of the ease of use. It also might do a better job looping the samples. You could build that midi file John was talking about and, it would work well on some sounds. It is kool that these programs can do all that work for you plus more. The most important part of the sample it to find a section to loop for a sustained sound and pick exactly where it should be, and to see that the beginning and end of the loop are exactly the same volume. The loop cross points need to be nearly perfectly in phase so you done hear the bump everytime it loops. Same for the volume at the crossover points. I have sampled my favorite from my K2500, some K2600, some from my motif XS. I tried a couple on me Yamaha wx5/vl70m. Too much expression stuff in that machine!!  You need a good clean preamp to get the most out of this type software. I use a Millennia HV-3D. I have focusrite, Behringer,Presonas, and even an apogee pre but I still prefer the Millennia. The only thing that I have had that was better was a custom Mark Levinson. (Lost that one in a divorce ?)22. 
 

 

[Keni]

uh-oh!

I tried to buy it, but I get "the seller is on vacation" and store closed until with no return date. 18 people watching (including me) and only 4 copies remain???

 

[Keni]

Thinking about it...

I do have a K2500RS buried in storage. If I had the strength to dig it out...

[Max Arwood]

Yea I tried too. 

[msmcleod]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:27 PM, bitflipper said:

 

This video pretty much says it all.

I would add a couple of things, based on my own experience with Sample Robot.

1. You can export as a ready made Kontakt instrument - i.e. a single .nki file, rather than importing the separate files as shown in the video.

2. I normally write down the answers to the wizard questions in a notebook as I'm auditioning all of the sounds within a hardware module.  This way,  I can build a project with up to 128 different patches and let it do the whole lot in one go.  Of course in this case I set Program Change to the appropriate patch number rather than zero as in the video, so it changes patch automatically when moving on to the next sound.  Then I just hit the start button and come back 24 hours or so later to export it.

It's worth mentioning that it's not just for hardware instruments.  I've sampled a bunch of my favourite Omnisphere sounds so I can play them on my V-Machine.  The V-Machine does support VSTi's but is way too under powered to host Omnisphere natively. With samples (using SampleLord VSTi) it plays without any issues.  No need to take a computer with you for live use - just a small box the size of a VHS cassette.

This also opens up the possibility of using sampled versions of your software synths in Cakewalk too, using a fraction of the CPU than the original VSTi.

[bitflipper]

You're making a damn good case for this tool, Mark. You've got me thinking about building an instrument from Omnisphere that I can load into one of my stage synths. Funny how these conversations can go down a rabbit hole quick. I know nothing about sample formats for the Korg Kronos or the Nord Stage, so now I'm thinking I've gotta learn those things too.

[John Vere]

I was wondering how keyboards like Nord worked. You sure see a lot of them on stage.  I assumed they were sample based players you could use custom made samples on.  I’ve heard some amazing B3 coming out them.  

[bitflipper]

The NS3 is actually four synths in one box. One's dedicated to organ, another to piano, another to synths and one plays samples. As a sample player it's not deep, nothing close to what you'd expect after being a Kontakt user. My Korg Kronos is a better sampler. Plus it's a true sampler, in that you can record directly into it. It's actually a sequencer that can record 16 channels of audio and 16 channels of MIDI, but I don't use that feature. It has a drum machine, too. But I don't use that onstage, either.

The Nord's Hammond emulation is pretty good but the Leslie sim sucks. Consequently, I physically play organ on the NS3 but the actual sound is coming out of my Kronos. That way I get the benefit of a light-touch organ-feeling keyboard and physical drawbars, but with better tone and a better Leslie simulation. I've used it with a Ventilator, but that's extra gear and it takes me an hour to set up as it is, so the Vent stays home.

The big benefit of the NS3 is that it's ergonomically laid out for real-time tweaking. I can, for example, add delay, reverb, distortion, chorus, etc. to any of the modules on the fly. The Korg, otoh, must be tediously programmed via gobs of deep menus and subsystems, so I don't fiddle with it at a gig.

But tbh, the main reason I bought the Nord is that it weighs only 22 lbs, compared to the Kronos at 82 lbs in the flight case. I need help lifting the Kronos onto the stand, whereas the NS3 I can sling over my shoulder when I go to jam sessions.

[Max Arwood]

I always wanted an  NS3. Unfortunately I bought a XS7 right before the Nords were popular.