Drummers, what are the rules on leading/lagging the beat?

[SuperFreq]

Are there any rules of thumb about drums leading or lagging the beat and how it affects the feel of the music?

In particular, I have a downtempo song (~72 bpm) and I want to inject some subtle energy dynamics aside from volume and pitch. In some parts I want it to feel rushed while in other parts I want it to feel more laid back, but all keeping the same basic tempo since I'm using rigid loops.

My gut tells me if the drums lead the beat by a hair, say 1/128th note, that'll give a slightly rushed feel while lagging gives it a more lazy feel... Am I on the right track?

[jackson white]

without hearing the grooves and assuming you're using either midi drums or beat slices, you could try;

1. managing the tension (push/pull, rock&roll) between the kick and snare (classic kit dynamics)
2. work on the hihats (articulations, timing and timbre)
3. and to a lesser degree, the transients/ambience for key hits in the groove
4. or drop out a kit piece (arrangement)

and all relative to whatever else is in the mix.

[SuperFreq]

4 hours ago, jackson white said:

without hearing the grooves and assuming you're using either midi drums or beat slices, you could try;

1. managing the tension (push/pull, rock&roll) between the kick and snare (classic kit dynamics)
2. work on the hihats (articulations, timing and timbre)
3. and to a lesser degree, the transients/ambience for key hits in the groove
4. or drop out a kit piece (arrangement)

and all relative to whatever else is in the mix.

Thanks for those suggestions, I'll definitely keep them in mind in addition to timing. I really want to explore leading & lagging the beat though. Inspired by a multitrack I found of Zeppelin where you can see Bonham plays with this. It's really effective.

[Hidden Symmetry]

When you mention Bonham & feel of music I immediately thought of Bernard Purdie  (check out Zeps Fool In The Rain for the Purdie Shuffle)

Here's an interview you might like checking out..when you're talking groove, feel, timing Bernard is one of the best.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Hidden Symmetry

[jackson white]

15 hours ago, SuperFreq said:

I really want to explore leading & lagging the beat

apologies if not clear, but these are all about leading/lagging a beat =  timing = what a real drummer does. 

19 hours ago, jackson white said:

• managing the tension timing ... between the kick and snare relative to each other as well as the beat
• ... hihat (... timing ...)

the others affect the perception of timing in a mix.

hth

[SuperFreq]

22 hours ago, jackson white said:

apologies if not clear, but these are all about leading/lagging a beat =  timing = what a real drummer does. 

the others affect the perception of timing in a mix.

hth

Awesome, so for example if the beat is a straight kick on 1 &3 with snare on 2&4, would it "rush" the beat if you nudge the snares (2&4) forward in time, for just a measure or two? Or could the same kick/snare tightening be accomplished by nudging the kick (1&3) later?

I'm doing a bunch of experiments, but at this point I think I'm hearing only a placebo effect. That's why I'm wondering if there are official "rules" amongst drummers.

Edited January 24, 2023 by SuperFreq

[SuperFreq]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:21 AM, Hidden Symmetry said:

When you mention Bonham & feel of music I immediately thought of Bernard Purdie  (check out Zeps Fool In The Rain for the Purdie Shuffle)

Here's an interview you might like checking out..when you're talking groove, feel, timing Bernard is one of the best.

 

I didn't watch the entire vid, but those grooves (Fool In The Rain, Rosanna) are definitely what I'm going for. They add a subtle busyness to the rhythm, without overcomplicating it, that really injects energy into the song. Didn't know Purdie was the guy who invented it!

Edited January 24, 2023 by SuperFreq

[John Nelson]

Love BP but no, he didn't invent the shuffle beat. He likes to claim credit for lots of things.  Check out his claims of playing on Beatles songs instead of Ringo.

Ahem.

As far as using shuffle beats in your music, assuming you have a drum VST that includes pre-rolled MIDI grooves, there are usually shuffle beats in the collection.  I wouldn't sit and move beats around in PRV. That sounds about as enjoyable as picking fly poop out of pepper.

Myself, I'm a drummer so I just play a shuffle as required...

[John Nelson]

Lotsa shuffles here: 

https://groovemonkee.com/products/jazz-buddy

[SuperFreq]

3 hours ago, John Nelson said:

 I wouldn't sit and move beats around in PRV. That sounds about as enjoyable as picking fly poop out of pepper.

You nailed it haha. Well, maybe even worse... These aren't midi beats I'm manipulating. It's an actual drum performance that I'm monkeying with, so I'm nudging wav files.

I'm trying to keep it simple, like nudging the drums a few ticks in front of the beat/instruments for a measure or two. In this particular song it's very sparse, mainly just a piano and vocals, so I have a lot of leeway. By bumping the drums in front, it makes it sound like the piano is kinda lazy in a good way, but psychologically the drums are pulling the instruments and the listener. I dunno man, like I said earlier, may be the placebo effect and actually it's doing nothing. I wish I were a drummer so I would know instinctively how to manipulate the beat. But I'm stuck doing the mouse click approach

PS that's hilarious about BP's tall tales. From what I saw in the video he seems like the kinda guy who could invent a good yarn

Edited January 24, 2023 by SuperFreq

[John Nelson]

This might help,

https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/6276/what-is-the-difference-between-swing-and-shuffle#:~:text=Swing 'flips off' the beat,Shuffle digs into it.

Cheers!