MIX BUS

[whoisp]

20 hours ago, Bapu said:

Maybe. But case in point.

Watched a video with that Whitesea guy and Glen Fricker do a test of a free Distressor, Slate Distressor and a real Distressor.

The free was hands down dismissed as far inferior to the Slate and the Slate was considered 'pretty good' but it was decided that the real thing was the real thing by far.

That in part drove my decision to give a hybrid system a try. Worst case scenario if I'm not satisfied; I can resell the gear as it all respected hardware on the intertubes.

True, its all about the sound you want, some people like country music at the end of the day lol

[whoisp]

19 minutes ago, Alan Tubbs said:

HardwarenD Shaping while recording makes it much easier to shape in the box or using external hardware.  -3dB while recording means you can use another - 3 dB compression, making a gentler, more natural sound from compression  than slamming it in the box or mastering.  And the imperfections are part of the charm.  The best engineering of vox I’ve ever done was gain riding an la2a itself during the take.  Glorious saturation while controlling the volume.  Cant do that with software, I think, tho there may be work arounds.

the most interesting bit of kit I’ve bought lately is the RND Orbit summing mixer.  It is transformer coupled on the outputs.  Running a hot signal thru the output shows exactly how much a transformer (by Rupert Neve) can sweeten the sound.  Once you hear it you can’t not hear it.  To my ears software solutions are great for precision control of vol for comps or surgical cuts for eq.  But if I want mojo on a channel, it is hardware.  
 

and as for pro mixers who are in the box, one often forgets their tracks have been recorded in pro tuned rooms with expensive hardware .  They already have all the analog magic built in.

Very true Alan, the reality is i record through an old studio unit which goes through my audio interface "Spdif". The direct input on Guitar, Bass or Vocal is just not the same if i go direct into the Audio interface and bypass my old unit. The unit does have Neve 1073 Pre-amp  EQ type collection with rack60/vintage/D Comp limiter and a noise gate which are all perfect for recording with the bonus of no latency.  Its perfect for my little setup, i pop over to my friends studios from time to time and he is always impressed at the recordings it produces. In reality it is a hybrid type setup for recording so i100% agree with what you are saying, the only thing i don't record is drums.  

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

The more I see mixing tutorials all over the place, the more I agree on how EMI used to teach their engineers back in the day as mentioned by Peter Doell. They learned to master before they learned how to mix. The logic behind that is you learn how the finish line is supposed to be, then you learn how to get to the finish line. Otherwise, you start decorating cake recipes that don't apply to all cases and tend to get stuck. And this is exploited by marketing departments all over to the point of selling falseties as a problem that only secret sauce product X can solve.

[whoisp]

14 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

The more I see mixing tutorials all over the place, the more I agree on how EMI used to teach their engineers back in the day as mentioned by Peter Doell. They learned to master before they learned how to mix. The logic behind that is you learn how the finish line is supposed to be, then you learn how to get to the finish line. Otherwise, you start decorating cake recipes that don't apply to all cases and tend to get stuck. And this is exploited by marketing departments all over to the point of selling falseties as a problem that only secret sauce product X can solve.

Yes, I worked for ITV and you learn backwards even though I did a degree in production and technology. You still have to start off with formats before anything, 24bit 48Khz for studio and broadcast quality to further understand latency for pre, post and live broadcasts. When you understand what the master, then you understand what you want from your mix. When you dubbing, doing scores, and mixing your own music production to broadcasts or dramas etc  you understand all the process but you started in reverse for that specific reason.   

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:29 PM, Bapu said:

Maybe. But case in point.

Watched a video with that Whitesea guy and Glen Fricker do a test of a free Distressor, Slate Distressor and a real Distressor.

The free was hands down dismissed as far inferior to the Slate and the Slate was considered 'pretty good' but it was decided that the real thing was the real thing by far.

That in part drove my decision to give a hybrid system a try. Worst case scenario if I'm not satisfied; I can resell the gear as it all respected hardware on the intertubes.

The huge issue with comparing analog gear which is composed of a ton of components, like the Distressor, and the software is that you can't claim a "reference" sound for the hardware. You're not gonna find two units of said hardware which sound the exactly same. So, the claim of a plugin not sounding like "the real thing" becomes a really weak argument IMO.

[whoisp]

7 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

The huge issue with comparing analog gear which is composed of a ton of components, like the Distressor, and the software is that you can't claim a "reference" sound for the hardware. You're not gonna find two units of said hardware which sound the exactly same. So, the claim of a plugin not sounding like "the real thing" becomes a really weak argument IMO.

Every Fender strat sounds different, nothing in reality is identical. In the box gives you constancy and all of this talk about the best digital compressors, preamps  and FX etc  is more about marketing and sales. Ego love sound bites of a famous Neve or Comp CLA 2A or 1176 etc even though like you said they all sound different and often repaired with different valves and transformers etc  

My point was more about people mixing into some crazy mix bus combination which often does take the life out of those sounds they are trying to emulate and the tracks going into the mix bus or buses going into the mix bus. Like you said, to then claim the plugin not sounding like the real thing. I checked my friend mixing out who was having some issues. A template he download for logic, which i don't use but obviously i know what a chin is to look at what he was doing.  He always had comp on the track, then the instrument bus, then his mix bus. So its gone through 3 comps before he does anything and wonder why things were pumping and he was buying silly priced plugins to get this neve sound lol People get bogged down in so much bullshit 

[Danny]

2 hours ago, whoisp said:

Every Fender strat sounds different, nothing in reality is identical. In the box gives you constancy and all of this talk about the best digital compressors, preamps  and FX etc  is more about marketing and sales. Ego love sound bites of a famous Neve or Comp CLA 2A or 1176 etc even though like you said they all sound different and often repaired with different valves and transformers etc  

My point was more about people mixing into some crazy mix bus combination which often does take the life out of those sounds they are trying to emulate and the tracks going into the mix bus or buses going into the mix bus. Like you said, to then claim the plugin not sounding like the real thing. I checked my friend mixing out who was having some issues. A template he download for logic, which i don't use but obviously i know what a chin is to look at what he was doing.  He always had comp on the track, then the instrument bus, then his mix bus. So its gone through 3 comps before he does anything and wonder why things were pumping and he was buying silly priced plugins to get this neve sound lol People get bogged down in so much bullshit 

That sums it up perfectly for me. Then of course you have the placebo effect as well as how things may sound "different" not necessarily "better".  It's amazing how people cling to something because they paid big money for it.

I'll never forget my hardware Manley Massive Passive. I paid a boatload of money for that thing. It sounded great. UAD comes out with the plug. I go on a mission to hear the difference. I bring my fiance in on it so there's no way I can cheat. She's a real witch when it comes to this stuff and really knows her stuff after being with me 13 years.

She messed me up so bad, the end result was "if you can't hear a difference comparing something 3 to 5 times, there isn't enough of a difference." And up for sale the hardware went. I got what I paid for it nearly.

In a world that listens through little earbuds as well as mono USB phone devices via their car speakers, (some are stereo, quite a few are NOT) they don't know about or care about quality anyway. I stopped trying to compete with commercial mixes long ago. Most sound terrible today. Benchmark me instead, you'll sound better. Lol!

At the end of the day, someone who knows what they are doing can make a mix sound great with nothing but an eq. That's where everyone should strive to be because if the sound isn't right before you print, you sit their polishing a turd for weeks and no plugin or hardware gizmo will fix that.

Spot on with the BS. Every time I see the name Steven Slate, I throw up in my mouth. Dirtiest, non transparent, over priced plugs I've ever used next to Sonnox. I can't tell you how many people sent me mixes with that stuff messing up their mixes. Upon removing them, the artifacts magically disappeared....go figure. Pilot error and over use? Maybe....but I had similar results and know a little about what I'm doing.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Danny
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[whoisp]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

At the end of the day, someone who knows what they are doing can make a mix sound great with nothing but an eq. That's where everyone should strive to be because if the sound isn't right before you print, you sit their polishing a turd for weeks and no plugin or hardware gizmo will fix that.

Exactly, gold is gold and no amount of plugs  will polish a turd. I spent one evening with my friend showing him some fundermentlay basics and a massive improvement in a week. He heard so much shit about cakewalk, he couldn't believe i used cakewalk and mainly stock. He bought a mac setup because everyone told him logic lol 

All my EQ, SAT, Comp, FX Verb and Delay is stock 90%. The only extras i use is a old Boss Studio, with built in pre amp sims and FX so i don't have latency issues for tracking vocal or guitar.   i bought Ozone 9 which is simple bus or mastering, Melodyne that i don't always use for corrections and some conversions , old vintage 76 drawer i like the sound of, got great air on it.

Yes id like to get RX10, Nectar, Soothe and Fabfilter etc but i only can justify silly money if i had money to burn. 

 

[OutrageProductions]

3 hours ago, whoisp said:

Exactly, gold is gold and no amount of plugs  will polish a turd.

Spot on. I make a very healthy living composing & scoring for film &TV with just 448 plugins, probably 300 of which I never use (most of Waves Gold Native).

Lots of NI, Spitfire & E/W. I'll mix 100 tracks with less than 40 EFX plugs.

My mastering chain is at max 5 plugs, and one of those is just metering & analysis.

It's all in knowing how to use the tools you're given and not sweatin' the small stuff.

Of course... great ears are a must, too.

[whoisp]

15 hours ago, OutrageProductions said:

Spot on. I make a very healthy living composing & scoring for film &TV

This is a area i would like to get back into. I lost all my contacts at ITV when the crossover from analogue to digital in UK happened. I changed my work, my mother became ill and i like lost 10yrs before i blinked... 

I like the causal way you say "just 448 plugins" haha that tickled me but i understand many are instrument and sound plugs not just fx

[OutrageProductions]

3 hours ago, whoisp said:

I like the causal way you say "just 448 plugins" haha that tickled me but i understand many are instrument and sound plugs not just fx

I'd say it's roughly 60% instruments, 40% FX.

My income this year is gonna take a big hit due to the directors, writers, and soon maybe SAG going on strike. Probably not the best time to try to get into this genre.

[whoisp]

1 hour ago, OutrageProductions said:

I'd say it's roughly 60% instruments, 40% FX.

My income this year is gonna take a big hit due to the directors, writers, and soon maybe SAG going on strike. Probably not the best time to try to get into this genre.

I will write music for anything, does matter what it is and im sure your the same.  Done a couple of little things but Rome wasn't built in a day  

[bats brew]

"Whats people take on the mix bus?"

 

 

i'm to the point now,

where i KNOW, if i don't mix into a 'mastering chain', too many things change during my mastering.

 

so, i have a customized "MASTERING" chain that i MIX into, a mastering chain, that i put on my MAINS channel.

i have a MASTER channel, that all my individual tracks route to, either directly or more likely thru a SUB BUSS channel for each grouping of instruments, guitars, bass, vox, drums, etc.

so tracks>>Sub bus>>Master bus>>MAINS.

on my MASTER channel, i mix into a G Series SSL Compressor. set very lightly, no more than -2db reduction, it's a 'glue compressor' at this point.

 

but i have on the MAINS, a parametric EQ, Pultect EQ, another SSL compressor,  Waves L2 set with a ceiling of -0.3 and doing only 1.0 db of reduction, fast release, to just catch the first peaks that get thru, then a Waves L3 multi band limiter, for the final limiting, that i set the ceiling for about -1.0db, and push it til i get to the LUFS i want, usually about -10 to -11.

 

then i turn that all off, when i bounce my actual mix, and that target it K-18.

 

this is working currently for me, better than what i did before.

 

but it's constantly changing. 

just cuz.

Edited June 7, 2023 by bats brew