Holy Wars...The Punishment Due

[bats brew]

13 hours ago, Ron_Pko said:

Thank you so much Batsbrew! Good question! I wanna ask you the same question by the way regards that. The requirements you have in mind when uploading to youtube. 
I never really know the maximum volume that Youtube will accept without turning the volume down by itself. And also not sure if youtube only turns the volume down or add some kind of compressing or limiter that could maybe squeeze the sound if the volume is above youtube's requirement. 

So to keep it safe, I avoided making it the loudest volume possible. That's why it probably sounds a bit quieter than usual.
I just wanted to make sure youtube won't change my mix in anyway when I upload it, in case it does it all. Would be glad to hear your opinion about this.

In the mastering, it was done very little. I just added an EQ to increase a bit the mids, adjusted to a volume that felt safe and that's it.

 The limiter is very very soft. Because it sounded good to my ears the way it is right out of the mix. 

thanks so much for the response ron...

you're stuff sounds so good, at the lower volume. i don't mind moving a volume fader! usually, i'm turning stuff down!

utoob is a bit confusing...

all over the web, folks talk about LUFS targets, that this is what utoob (and other streamers and congregators) use as 'target' levels for streaming...

 

and as a matter of fact, all the free streamers sound like crap to me!! the HD settings on utoob sound about the best of all.

so when i upload files to utoob, i always use 24 bit 48k.

 

now, when mastering, i typically split the difference between cd release levels (OMG, the pros are hitting a DR of 5 with true peak overs all over the place, and nobody seems to care!) and usually i mix at K18, which means, usually, i have peaks at about -4db (headroom for mastering) and rms levels of about -18.

then, mastering, i try to goose the levels up to about -0.8 true peak, and rms of about -10.

but i always feel that it sounds 'congested' compared to my pure mix.

so i've tried to develop techniques to gently push the RMS and LUFS up, using a bit of eq, a bit of SSL compression at 2:1 and maybe 2db of reduction and makeup, and a limiter to catch only about -1bd peaks, then another multiband limiter (i use Waves L3) to finish, and between all that, i can get to about -10 or -11 LUFS without it getting ridiculous...

but your tune here, which feels/sounds like it's closer to the UTOOB target of no louder than 0DB at -14 LUFS...

and tho it's lower in volume, compared to other hard rock streamings, it SOUNDS better to me ears.

so, i'm thinking about backing off trying to push LOUD mastered 2-track files, and bring it back closer to what my actual mixes are.

 

ok, not trying to derail this thread...

but this is relevent to your post, and i'm being influenced by it. LOL

so, latest megadeth on utoob:

Killing Time: Chapter V (which is a cool tune) at 1080p:

(if you right click on the screen to get to the "stats for nerds", this is what utoob is doing to the file with the volume at 100%)

Volume / Normalized  100% / 83% (content loudness 1.7dB)

 

your file:  at 1080p  (apples and apples)

Volume / Normalized  100% / 100% (content loudness -1.5dB)

 

the way i read this difference, is that the megadeth tune is being reduced by 83%, and they are 1.7db louder than -14. 

which would mean, they uploaded their file a bit hotter than -14, at @12.3.

yours is -1.5 below the target, meaning maybe your file is at 15.5 rms? (just a guess)

theoretically, you could push your master up another 1.5db, and still just hit the target.

but targets aren't really imporant, i dont think, it's how the mastering changes the dynamics.

now a lot of modern rock are not relying on 'dynamics' for the excitement, they're using 'arrangements', meaning, lots of track movement, tracks in and out, left and right, etc.

 

and all of this seems to back up exactly what you said you did, very light mastering, to leave it as close to the original sound of the mix as possible.

 

no doubt, pro masterers could get your levels up to pro release level without ruining your mix...

but i can't!!

LOL,

and i've spent years trying to figure out where the best 'compromise' is between loud masters that compete with pro, but don't ruin my own mixes.

 

for cd's, you gotta go loud, for folks that rip singles and throw them into 'mix tapes'....

but other than that, i'm starting to back off my levels, and keep them closer to my original mixes, because i'm not skilled enough to get mega level that doesn't ruin dynamics and fatigues my ears.

 

now, in theory, my guess is  your mix is around k18 (just guessing) and if that's the case, you could take whatever headroom you have (say, your peaks are at -3db), and you could NORMALIZE your final MIX, and simply take it up another 2db (leave a true peak of -1db for all streaming) without changing anything. (yes, there are arguments to this, not going there)

and that's before mastering. so you'd be at -16db LUFS/rms. just 2db off the utoob target upload levels.

then you could squeeze another 2 db at least with very light limiting. that much would almost not be apparent, but would raise your rms levels.

now, you would be at approx -14db LUFS, and utoob would not be fukin with your file at all.

does that make sense?

 

[Ron_Pko]

3 hours ago, batsbrew said:

thanks so much for the response ron...

you're stuff sounds so good, at the lower volume. i don't mind moving a volume fader! usually, i'm turning stuff down!

utoob is a bit confusing...

all over the web, folks talk about LUFS targets, that this is what utoob (and other streamers and congregators) use as 'target' levels for streaming...

 

and as a matter of fact, all the free streamers sound like crap to me!! the HD settings on utoob sound about the best of all.

so when i upload files to utoob, i always use 24 bit 48k.

 

now, when mastering, i typically split the difference between cd release levels (OMG, the pros are hitting a DR of 5 with true peak overs all over the place, and nobody seems to care!) and usually i mix at K18, which means, usually, i have peaks at about -4db (headroom for mastering) and rms levels of about -18.

then, mastering, i try to goose the levels up to about -0.8 true peak, and rms of about -10.

but i always feel that it sounds 'congested' compared to my pure mix.

so i've tried to develop techniques to gently push the RMS and LUFS up, using a bit of eq, a bit of SSL compression at 2:1 and maybe 2db of reduction and makeup, and a limiter to catch only about -1bd peaks, then another multiband limiter (i use Waves L3) to finish, and between all that, i can get to about -10 or -11 LUFS without it getting ridiculous...

but your tune here, which feels/sounds like it's closer to the UTOOB target of no louder than 0DB at -14 LUFS...

and tho it's lower in volume, compared to other hard rock streamings, it SOUNDS better to me ears.

so, i'm thinking about backing off trying to push LOUD mastered 2-track files, and bring it back closer to what my actual mixes are.

 

ok, not trying to derail this thread...

but this is relevent to your post, and i'm being influenced by it. LOL

so, latest megadeth on utoob:

Killing Time: Chapter V (which is a cool tune) at 1080p:

(if you right click on the screen to get to the "stats for nerds", this is what utoob is doing to the file with the volume at 100%)

Volume / Normalized  100% / 83% (content loudness 1.7dB)

 

your file:  at 1080p  (apples and apples)

Volume / Normalized  100% / 100% (content loudness -1.5dB)

 

the way i read this difference, is that the megadeth tune is being reduced by 83%, and they are 1.7db louder than -14. 

which would mean, they uploaded their file a bit hotter than -14, at @12.3.

yours is -1.5 below the target, meaning maybe your file is at 15.5 rms? (just a guess)

theoretically, you could push your master up another 1.5db, and still just hit the target.

but targets aren't really imporant, i dont think, it's how the mastering changes the dynamics.

now a lot of modern rock are not relying on 'dynamics' for the excitement, they're using 'arrangements', meaning, lots of track movement, tracks in and out, left and right, etc.

 

and all of this seems to back up exactly what you said you did, very light mastering, to leave it as close to the original sound of the mix as possible.

 

no doubt, pro masterers could get your levels up to pro release level without ruining your mix...

but i can't!!

LOL,

and i've spent years trying to figure out where the best 'compromise' is between loud masters that compete with pro, but don't ruin my own mixes.

 

for cd's, you gotta go loud, for folks that rip singles and throw them into 'mix tapes'....

but other than that, i'm starting to back off my levels, and keep them closer to my original mixes, because i'm not skilled enough to get mega level that doesn't ruin dynamics and fatigues my ears.

 

now, in theory, my guess is  your mix is around k18 (just guessing) and if that's the case, you could take whatever headroom you have (say, your peaks are at -3db), and you could NORMALIZE your final MIX, and simply take it up another 2db (leave a true peak of -1db for all streaming) without changing anything. (yes, there are arguments to this, not going there)

and that's before mastering. so you'd be at -16db LUFS/rms. just 2db off the utoob target upload levels.

then you could squeeze another 2 db at least with very light limiting. that much would almost not be apparent, but would raise your rms levels.

now, you would be at approx -14db LUFS, and utoob would not be fukin with your file at all.

does that make sense?

 

Yeah, I never know. Some say it's -13, -14 LUFS and others will say -16 LUFS. It's a bit confusing to me.

Below this message I'm posting a print screen of my Loudness Meter for my  Holy Wars cover master audio file.
Very interesting what you said about 24bit/48000 because of ytube's HD settings.

My audios are all 16bit/44100. But I didn't know that ytube had better audio settings for 24bit/48k. That's good to know.

What I know and discovered recently though, is that ytube has a much better codec for 2k and 4k videos, and that info saved me from a whole lotta trouble that I was having with gradients getting screwed up when uploading to youtube, even with the video image being perfect rendered out of my video editor.

I guess you noticed that videos on ytube that have much gradient are full of ugly color banding, specially 1k videos. And some blocky strange artifacts in dark areas sometimes.

That's because ytube uses a worse codec for 1k, different than the better one used for 2k and 4k videos which also have some problems but a lot better.

So from few videos on, I've been uploading my videos all in 2k and that improved so much the quality. 

Even if my videos are 1K, I render them in 2K anyway (2560x1440), just to get rid of that horrible youtube 1K codec.

You mentioned you watched my video at 1080p, but it should be an option for 1440p also. (which weirdly sometimes disappears leaving only the 1080p, but refreshing the page it comes back, weird lol)

But yeah, back to audio... well, I don't use a very aggressive limiter or compressor when mastering because I like the song to breath a bit. It feels more organic.

I see many mixes even professional on albums that feel so overly compressed to my taste. Sound suffocated really. 

I DO use a very aggressive compressor for vocals and bass though. Because vocals are so dynamic, and the bass I want to be very even the whole song, so I compress the hell out of it, specially on the low end. Cause the bass I duplicate it and make a low and high pass, to control the volume of Lows and mids individually. 
Keep the low end raw and very very compressed and add some bass distortion on the mid/high copy letting it breath a bit more. I like the bass to be heard, like Iron Maiden songs, you always hear the bass haha

And man, thank you so much for taking my attention to that ''stats for nerds'' thing. Indeed it says -1.5 db, which I think it means I could have it a bit louder then, as you said. 
Below my LUFS meter, you can see the time exactly of the song it's metering, which judging by the waves forms must be the part of the song that is the loudest or more even  



 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ron_Pko

[bats brew]

32 minutes ago, Ron_Pko said:

 

Below this message I'm posting a print screen of my Loudness Meter for my  Holy Wars cover master audio file.
Very interesting what you said about 24bit/48000 because of ytube's HD settings.

My audios are all 16bit/44100. But I didn't know that ytube had better audio settings for 24bit/48k. That's good to know.

You mentioned you watched my video at 1080p, but it should be an option for 1440p also. (which weirdly sometimes disappears leaving only the 1080p, but refreshing the page it comes back, weird lol)

But yeah, back to audio... well, I don't use a very aggressive limiter or compressor when mastering because I like the song to be able to breath a bit. It feels more organic.

I see many mixes even professional on albums that feel so overly compressed to my taste. Sound suffocated really. 

I DO use a very aggressive compressor for vocals and bass though. Because vocals are so dynamic, and the bass I want to be very even the whole song, so I compress the hell out of it, specially on the low end. Cause the bass I duplicate it and make a low and high pass, to control the volume of Lows and mids individually. 
Keep the low end raw and very very compressed and add some bass distortion on the mid/high copy letting it breath a bit more. I like the bass to be heard, like Iron Maiden songs, you always hear the bass haha

And man, thank you so much for taking my attention to that ''stats for nerds'' thing. Indeed it says -1.5 db, which I think it means I could have it a bit louder then, as you said. 
Below my LUFS meter, you can see the time exactly of the song it's metering, which judging by the waves forms must be the part of the song that is the loudest or more even  

ron,

 if your loudness meters isn't beefy enough:

Waves WLM loudness meter
https://www.waves.com/plugins/wlm-loudness-meter#how-to-set-loudness-levels-for-streaming-wlm

i watched yours at 1080, just because that's the highest available on the megadeth channel.
so i was comparing like to like.

i agree with you, the place to really tame levels is on the channel level.
i do the same thing.
i have all kinds of cool compressors and limiters, and now i use a tube distortion circuit (waves magma bb tubes) and that dials it in even niceer (my RME Babyface pro has super clean preamps, so if i want color, it has to be after the fact. i do have some outboard preamps i could use, but i like the simplicity of the babyface)

that's funny how you describe tracking bass, we're very similar that way.
i usually track two tracks at once with a mono bass in, i use a sansamp bass di, and my iridium, and focus lows on the sansamp, and mids are run through the strymon iridium with a marshall head thru a ampeg 4x10 cab iR.

your true peaks should be no less than -1.0db, or you are losing headroom you don't really need to lose...
that said, it sounds good that way.
folks way back when, used to create files with that much headroom for vinyl,
but i aint doin' vinyl!!
so, at -3.8dbTP, you could still push your numbers up to -1.0db, and have plenty of headroom for any codec.
 

Edited December 16, 2022 by batsbrew

[Ron_Pko]

On 12/16/2022 at 6:48 PM, batsbrew said:

ron,

 if your loudness meters isn't beefy enough:

Waves WLM loudness meter
https://www.waves.com/plugins/wlm-loudness-meter#how-to-set-loudness-levels-for-streaming-wlm

i watched yours at 1080, just because that's the highest available on the megadeth channel.
so i was comparing like to like.

i agree with you, the place to really tame levels is on the channel level.
i do the same thing.
i have all kinds of cool compressors and limiters, and now i use a tube distortion circuit (waves magma bb tubes) and that dials it in even niceer (my RME Babyface pro has super clean preamps, so if i want color, it has to be after the fact. i do have some outboard preamps i could use, but i like the simplicity of the babyface)

that's funny how you describe tracking bass, we're very similar that way.
i usually track two tracks at once with a mono bass in, i use a sansamp bass di, and my iridium, and focus lows on the sansamp, and mids are run through the strymon iridium with a marshall head thru a ampeg 4x10 cab iR.

your true peaks should be no less than -1.0db, or you are losing headroom you don't really need to lose...
that said, it sounds good that way.
folks way back when, used to create files with that much headroom for vinyl,
but i aint doin' vinyl!!
so, at -3.8dbTP, you could still push your numbers up to -1.0db, and have plenty of headroom for any codec.
 

Thanks for the recommendations batsbrew! Love Waves plugins, and I surely have some of them! Waves Sibilance is one of them! : )

Do you have Vocal Rider? For some reason, I had no luck with Vocal Rider in Cakewalk, the thing doesn't seem to work or I'm missing something.

For bass I used only the TSE BOD v3.0.0 and been using it for a while since the ''welcome to the jungle ''  cover and on. 

And for guitars... man, I think that the TH3 that comes free with Cakewalk is amazing! I have used it a lot!

The videos I made for  ''Welcome To The Jungle'', ''The Writing On The Wall'', ''Medusa'' and ''Hypnotize Yourself''  are 100% TH3 for guitars.

And yes, I also wanna say. I also noticed that the new megadeth video and others are all 1080p. Which is strange! It seems that not many people know about this information, that with uploading a 2k video ytube would use a much better codec and screw up less. I can see the same problems I described when I watch this new Megadeth video ''Killing Time''. Some pixelated color banding in darker parts of the video. If they posted a 2k video it would be a lot better than this. Cool video anyway though, this is my favorite Megadeth song from the new album. 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Ron_Pko

[Dream Art Scientists]

Great job on the performance and on the mix!  Sounds great!

Edited December 17, 2022 by Dream Art Scientists

[Ron_Pko]

Just now, Dream Art Scientists said:

Great job on the performance and on the mix!  Sounds great!

Thank you for watching and commenting Dream Art Scientists! 

[jwnicholson78]

Well that rocked.   Very professional sounding!

jeff

[Ron_Pko]

1 hour ago, jwnicholson78 said:

Well that rocked.   Very professional sounding!

jeff

Thank you Jeff!

[bats brew]

On 12/17/2022 at 3:51 PM, Ron_Pko said:

Do you have Vocal Rider? For some reason, I had no luck with Vocal Rider in Cakewalk, the thing doesn't seem to work or I'm missing something.

yes, i bought that stupid plug right when it came out.

i never got it to work for me, the way i mix... i mean, it DOES work, but i never bonded with it, and never use it.

On 12/17/2022 at 3:51 PM, Ron_Pko said:

 Cool video anyway though, this is my favorite Megadeth song from the new album. 

i think that folks have been burning files and uploading a certain way for so long now, that the 'newest' methods take a long time to become 'the norm'.

seems most folks opt for 1080 as the highest playback anyway, even if there are higher def options...

maybe it's just a default setting for most.