Soundpaint 2.0 H.A. L.

[Larry Shelby]

We invite you to be amongst the first to see our new Soundpaint 2.0 in action. Soundpaint 2.0 features our new Hyper Acoustic Legato (H.A.L) Technology, which lets you play instruments with complete, unobstructed realism.

H.A.L is a seamless polyphonic legato technology. Play an instrument both as a solo and/or ensemble at the same time!

Soundpaint 2.0 also includes:

- Updated USI (User Sample Import) Tool. Supports Khz Rates

- New Virtual Keyboard lets you see what notes you are playing

- New Rack Legato Module (Controllers for our H.A.L engine)

- New Rack Story Module. Add text and pictures to programs

- New Sound Modes. Including Legato and Dynamic Sustains

Dynamic Sustains uses a new technology called Morph Shading, which renders 127 different sustains in real-time.- Full Protools (AAX) Support- Various bug fixes and optimizations

- Various bug fixes and optimization

Soundpaint 2.0 is a free update. Coming November 17th 2022.

Click here to watch our walkthrough (and the whole backstory as to how Soundpaint came to be).

 

 

[PavlovsCat]

Boom. Shots fired! Troels throws some serious shade at NI/KONTAKT at 22 minutes and thereafter, referring to KONTAKT as a "twenty year old scripting system" and that SoundPaint's sampler "essentially uses brand new code bases and build it from the ground up twenty years later." That doesn't sound like a developer who sees a future in developing sample libraries for NI.  I didn't watch the whole video, but it seems rather obvious that Troels wants to bail on KONTAKT.  It's no wonder why there are fire sale prices on 8Dio libraries.

[Larry Shelby]

That's too bad because Soundpaint is an "Albatross"!  It's libraries are disk hogs, and there's no way 
that he can compete with NI's lossless compression scheme, so here's to wishing him the very 
best in his (fruitless) endeavors.

Edited November 15, 2022 by cclarry

[PavlovsCat]

16 minutes ago, cclarry said:

That's too bad because Soundpaint is an "Albatross"!  It's libraries are disk hogs, and there's no way 
that he can complete with NI's lossless compression scheme, so here's to wishing him the very 
best in his (fruitless) endeavors.

Larry unfiltered! Hahahaha! That's brutal, but you've made some excellent points.  I did pick up several SoundPaint libraries, and while I've had a lot of fun programming patches, the samples themselves -- with the exception of Bazantar, which I love and was only $20 USD -- are really bland and, as you've pointed out, disk hogs, like every other 8Dio library. I initially enjoyed the Wurli for $20USD, largely due to one super distorted patch. But there's no life, no dynamics to the sample library. In the end, it's lifeless and only made interesting when you throw tons of effects on it. 

What's also interesting is that Troels -- who I had a call with years ago and I do really like -- rips on KONTAKT's scripting, but my 8Dio libraries are dumps of articulations without smart, intuitive scripting, so it's ironic that the KONTAKT developer with some of the most disappointing scripting is now ripping on KONTAKT for their scripting capabilities.  This is just what the pros in advertising call "mud slinging." He's disparaging a competitor to attempt to make his product look superior. It's not a path I would advise, but if you're going to go that route, you better have a clearly superior product and I have SoundPaint and there's no way it's superior to KONTAKT. Not even close. 

Also, on the product naming end of things, he's named the latest version of his sampler H.A.L. when one of the oldest sampler plugins still on the market is named HALion (a "Space Odyssey" reference). I'm really surprised he would do that from a branding perspective.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[antler]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

Boom. Shots fired! Troels throws some serious shade at NI/KONTAKT at 22 minutes and thereafter, referring to KONTAKT as a "twenty year old scripting system" and that SoundPaint's sampler "essentially uses brand new code bases and build it from the ground up twenty years later." That doesn't sound like a developer who sees a future in developing sample libraries for NI.  I didn't watch the whole video, but it seems rather obvious that Troels wants to bail on KONTAKT.  It's no wonder why there are fire sale prices on 8Dio libraries.

I'm not sure that's what it is. I think he's trying to do the sales pitch thing where you mention the problem (using samples), amplify it (saying the tech is old), and then presenting the solution (the SoundPaint engine).

If he is criticising old technology, it's a little ironic because he then goes to romanticise about synth oscillators - a technology even older than sampling.

Again, didn't watch the whole video so I'll admit upfront that I may have got the wrong end of the stick.

[PavlovsCat]

3 hours ago, antler said:

I'm not sure that's what it is. I think he's trying to do the sales pitch thing where you mention the problem (using samples), amplify it (saying the tech is old), and then presenting the solution (the SoundPaint engine).

If he is criticising old technology, it's a little ironic because he then goes to romanticise about synth oscillators - a technology even older than sampling.

Again, didn't watch the whole video so I'll admit upfront that I may have got the wrong end of the stick.

Give it a watch and I think you'll see. There's no question about his attack on KONTAKT and if you were NI's CMO, you would absolutely see this as an attack from a competitor. 

Troel's is saying that KONTAKT is outdated and inferior to the superior, amazing, incredible, fantastic, ultra-deep sampler that his company has created and called, interestingly, part of the same name as one of its competitors (HAL). Troel mentions KONTAKT being outdated and the impetus for his developing a new and far superior sampler. You can also call it a sales tactic -- it's really a different name for a promotional tactic -- that we in the marketing and advertising world call "getting in the mud." Which means doing a direct comparison with your competitor, that is, of course, unfavorable to your competitor. So yes, as always, Troels' is hyping/over-hyping his products, but in this case, he's directly disparaging a competitor that he has had a long relationship and that's not a good way to maintain a good relationship and I'm sure he realizes that. 

Now here's the leap that seems like a rather obvious leap. Troels has,  no doubt, launched SoundPaint hoping that it's sales will overtake that of 8Dio and he will likely stop producing new libraries for 8Dio if SoundPaint sales are significantly superior. That's speculation, but it's also no-brainer speculation. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by PavlovsCat
EDITED to improve clarity.

[antler]

18 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

Watch it. There's no question about his attack on KONTAKT and if you were NI's CMO, you would absolutely see this as an attack from a competitor. 

I'm good, thanks.

I watched around 10mins and decided I didn't like the tone of the video. Not sure I could watch another 20, given I don't want to invest in SP yet. Maybe one day when I can get a full and realistic sounding orchestra in SoundPaint without needing to own a data storage centre.

[PavlovsCat]

19 minutes ago, antler said:

I'm good, thanks.

I watched around 10mins and decided I didn't like the tone of the video. Not sure I could watch another 20, given I don't want to invest in SP yet. Maybe one day when I can get a full and realistic sounding orchestra in SoundPaint without needing to own a data storage centre.

You and Larry are cracking me up. Savage! Data centre, that's pretty funny and not too far from reality. I just wish 8Dio invested in decent KONTAKT scripting. I think Troels is being very inaccurate in his characterization of KONTAKT (that's the diplomatic version).  That's possibly out of ignorance-- that he doesn't actually code himself-- and possibly out of a propensity to engage in ultra deep hype and exaggeration. I'm just sayin'...

[Technostica]

I like Troels as a person but I find that he talks way too much in the walkthrough videos for my liking.
I'm glad that SP use different presenters on YT.

[abacab]

2 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

the superior, amazing, incredible, fantastic, ultra-deep sampler that his company has created

I would consider Soundpaint superior if he could get the same sound quality out of a smaller sample set using that amazing new technology! I like the concept, what with the limitless velocity layers, sample morphing, and now the new legato tech,  but it appears that most of the sample libraries are unnecessarily huge.

[Kal Elle]

The saxophone intro and the mini performance at 5 min (ish)... sold it to me.
It really does sound very realistic, right guys?

Uff.

You can use your own samples in Soundpaint?

[abacab]

2 minutes ago, Kal Elle said:

You can use your own samples in Soundpaint?

Yes!!!

[kitekrazy1]

Soundbloat!

[abacab]

3 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

Watch it. There's no question about his attack on KONTAKT and if you were NI's CMO, you would absolutely see this as an attack from a competitor. 

B.S.! I think his tone was more of a dreamer who is honestly attempting to think outside of the box! There is no doubt probably some hype and self-promotion involved, and that is business.

We will see where this leads, and the naysayers in the end may look like the folks that said the sun revolved around the earth centuries ago (in opposition to Nicolaus Copernicus, 19 February 1473 – 24 May 1543), if this is truly a breakthrough in music technology.

I'm willing to give him a chance!

[PavlovsCat]

21 hours ago, abacab said:

B.S.! I think his tone was more of a dreamer who is honestly attempting to think outside of the box! There is no doubt probably some hype and self-promotion involved, and that is business.

We will see where this leads, and the naysayers in the end may look like the folks that said the sun revolved around the earth centuries ago (in opposition to Nicolaus Copernicus, 19 February 1473 – 24 May 1543), if this is truly a breakthrough in music technology.

I'm willing to give him a chance!

Of course, you can give him a chance. I'm  a customer with probably a couple of dozen 8Dio and SoundPaint libraries. I'm obviously giving him/them a chance. I'm not sure why you feel the need to resort to calling someone else's perspective BS. You can have a different perspective without making an attack on thiose that you disagree with. As I wrote, I've talked to Troels, he's called on me for advice years ago. I like him and I'm an 8Dio/SoundPaint customer. You're incorrect in casting me as I'm anti- SoundPaint because I'm not a non-critical fanboy. I'm just making some very basic observations about what Troels said/did in the video and about SoundPaint's and 8Dio's products from my experience as a customer/user. 

Earlier today, when I first saw the video,  I shot the link over to a few sample developer friends to get their thoughts. They agreed that Troels going on for several minutes claiming KONTAKT is outdated with what he refers to as "20 year old scripting technology" was simply untrue (one dev guessed that because Troels' doesn't code, he probably doesn't even know about the advancements in KONTAKT, and specifically, the advances in the current version of KONTAKT, as Troels incorrectly states that the changes in KONTAKT 7 are primarily GUI-focused; according to the responses I received, that's simply untrue) and they also saw the video as clearly a competitor attack on KONTAKT. Troels' set up a strawman argument that KONTAKT is an outdated sampler using 20 yr old technology (that statement  is false) and SoundPaint was just built from the groundup taking into consideration modern advances in sampling, that it's a giant leap forward from KONTAKT. In a nutshell, taking in what I've learned, SoundPaint has some very good ideas but is not the incredible breakthrough Troels hypes it up to be and -- this is according to the developers, not something I personally know to be the case, KONTAKT can do most of the things the new version of SoundPaint does. I don't remember the exact comparison, so I may be screwing this up, but one developer referenced the way SoundPaint does velocity layers as being very similar to the way either Yamaha or Roland does it (I can't recall which, maybe a sample developer reading this can chime in). I was told that you can do most of what SoundPaint does with KONTAKT.

Now, I'm not a sample developer and I don't code (long ago I did), but it's rather clear that Troels wants this sampler to compete with KONTAKT and he's gotten some developers to release libraries in the SoundPaint format. So he obviously has competitive aspirations, which is great. Competition is great for advancing technology and making things more affordable for users. I've already invested in the SoundPaint ecosystem (the sampler is free, but, IMO, the best thing about SoundPaint is the ease of making your own programs and making patches layering different SP libraries). But here's what I find is the bottom line: 

As a user, does SoundPaint deliver on Troels' promises? Does it sound better than KONTAKT? Are the libraries better scripted and more intuitive to play than a top notch KONTAKT library? In each case, the answer is a resounding no. 

At this point, IMO, SoundPaint falls far short of KONTAKT.  The SoundPaint libraries I own -- pianos,  string, electric piano, electric pianos,  guitar (it was so poor compared to my KONTAKT libraries that it's the first sample library I've ever returned), sound design and percussion libraries are inferior to my favorite KONTAKT libraries sonically,  dynamically and in terms of scripting.  It's not even close. But that might be because the SoundPaint folks (okay, it's technically 8Dio, but for the purposes of this post, I'm going to separate the two as if they're two companies) are using legacy KONTAKT libraries and I'm not saying that their libraries are better scripted in the KONTAKT version. as I have found 8Dio KONTAKT libraries to not have really great, intuitive KONTAKT scripts.  Consequently, if the SoundPaint sampler is indeed technologically superior to KONTAKT,  it's not apparent from the end results. And I'm not even addressing the huge file size that most people bring up when someone mentions 8Dio or SoundPaint.  For me,  the greatest thing about SoundPaint's sampler is how easy and fun it is to create your own programs. I would love it if the libraries improve from where they are today, because I think SoundPaint wins for me over KONTAKT on usability when creating your own programs.  

Now all of that doesn't mean that SoundPaint isn't capable of becoming an incredible sampler. But to date, with the SoundPaint libraries I own, it absolutely isn't there yet. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[kevin H]

Soundpaint is diversifying and selling thanksgiving turkeys this year….you’ll need 30 walking freezers to store one turkey ? 

[locrian]

 

[antler]

20 hours ago, abacab said:

We will see where this leads, and the naysayers in the end may look like the folks that said the sun revolved around the earth centuries ago (in opposition to Nicolaus Copernicus, 19 February 1473 – 24 May 1543), if this is truly a breakthrough in music technology.

I'm willing to give him a chance!

I'm willing to give them a chance too.

I have nothing against either 8Dio or SoundPaint; I have a few of the former's libraries. I've always (mistakenly?) been of the belief that 8Dio is for more realistic sounds, SoundPaint is more for sound design (at least for now).

My comment about storage requirements stems from the fact that I already have quite a few orchestral libraries. SP libraries seem significantly larger than Kontakt ones, and given the libraries I have, it's probably not a good plan in my circumstances to upgrade to SP versions and buy the additional required storage.

SP seems like an interesting technology. From the description, I imagine it's some combination of 'true-legato' style sampling and granular synthesis. I simply don't have the storage means for the libraries though.

[kevin H]

For the record I have quite a few SP libraries. I wish they could figure out how to make their libraries smaller though…..

[abacab]

Just now, kevin H said:

For the record I have quite a few SP libraries. I wish they could figure out how to make their libraries smaller though…..

I agree. That sample footprint is my only complaint, and my hesitation to replace any standard Kontakt or other libraries with SP at this point. Kontakt is probably the best universal solution for sample based instruments we have at our disposal today. Use what you've got!

But I think that Kontakt's days may be numbered as an "industry standard".  That idea may cause some anxiety for those that are heavily invested in that ecosystem. But change will be incremental, so no worries for now. My thoughts are that Kontakt is a victim of its own success. Now that it is a virtual "operating system" for scripted sample libraries, Native Instruments hands are tied to supporting an ecosystem of developers and libraries that are dependent on how it works today. NI must tread carefully with any innovations or new features that may create incompatibilities, and thus kill the "goose that laid the golden egg"!

That slow motion is leaving the competitive door wide open for nimble, creative innovators in the virtual instrument realm. I think that innovations in hybrid sampler/physical modeling is probably next. Just consider what an Impulse Response (IR) can do in a convolution reverb or a modeled speaker cabinet emulation. You just take an IR and you can re-create the space that the IR was recorded in.

With the increasing processing capacity of modern CPUs, maybe someday soon that is how virtual instruments will create real-world sounds instead of "deep sampling". Start from a modeled sound source and just a few snippets of an actual recorded instrument, then reproduce the many articulations needed to play a "real" instrument!