abacab Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Grem said: I keep reaching for CW because when I try to do something in another DAW I get frustrated and just say the heck with it and go back to CW because I know it so well. I do like some of the things in Reaper and SO though. CW is the same for me at times. I think of it as "muscle memory". But I try to keep digging away at SO though, as it offers a lot and I already have it, and intend for it to become my #1. I also have Reaper, mainly because I have one plugin that only handles MIDI out correctly in Reaper. Go figure!!! And I also found a theme [ECHOLOT] that somewhat resembles Cakewalk, so that helps a lot with any issues I may have with the stock Reaper theme... ? And I find Ableton Live fun to keep around for experiments. I don't see it as a conventional DAW and it doesn't duplicate one in many ways, but rather makes a good complement to your main DAW for creative inspiration, especially for electronic musicians . Even guitar players might become fascinated with live looping their guitar tracks, and/or using a Live session for triggering backing tracks with loops while improvising. I have had a full version of Live 5 since 2006 that came bundled with an M-Audio keyboard, and I had not bothered upgrading it. But in 2018 Ableton sent me a "special offer" (same price as 12 years earlier) to upgrade for cheap to Live 9 Standard, with an entitlement for Live 10 when released. That sucked me back in. What can I say, sucker for a great deal! Ableton deserves credit for valuing their existing customers, which is an example many other (unnamed) companies should follow! Edited October 15, 2022 by abacab 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernon Barnes Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I still have Cubase 9 and I won't be upgrading as I never use it. I also have a old version of Mixbus I won't be updating. Upgrading Cakewalk is a no brainer. I am subscribed to Presonus Sphere. I like what they have done with the lyrics in Studio One 6. I am finding the integration between Studio One and Notion very useful, a couple of clicks and you have you full score, complete with chord ( from the chord track) and lyrics all done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezza Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 11 hours ago, Grem said: Can't stress this enough. I went for years with $100 audio interfaces. When I finally got a good one, it was like night and day. And the funny thing is when I was younger I would buy my guitars and amps with the thought of get the best I could afford. Why? You get what you pay for!! Somehow that didn't occur to me till much latter in the DAW game!! I am on the fence about this, the UR44 I use does not have very good specs, dynamic range for example. Not sure whether to get a different interface or get a dedicated preamp to feed into the line in of the UR44. Out of interest, what did you end up getting and what difference was it that you noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grem Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tezza said: what did you end up getting and what difference was it that you noticed? At first I got a used RME Fireface 400. Rock solid and great preamps. Next I stepped up to a UAD Apollo. The USB at first, and now the Thunderbolt 3. Being able to slip a plugin into the Unison slot of the Apollo has changed the way I record and mix. I can put a SSL, a Neve, API, or Helios in the Unison slot, each one sounds different and it gives my trks something I never knew I missed. Dimension! I find that my vocals are much more easily controllable in a mix. My guitar has something about it that helps it sit in a mix better. My Yamaha bass even sounds better going through the Apollo direct to the trk. Getting a true quality preamp, with the ability to change the sound/reaction according to what I put in the Unison slot, gives me so many options. And to be honest, I got my first Apollo with the sole intention of just using it for giving the singer some good reverb to sing with when doing takes. You know, with Zero latency. Then I started really using it and was just floored. I just couldn't believe how good and different each console strip or amp sounded. And playing with zero latency is fabulous. : ) It's like I am really recording in a real studio. RME has better drivers. I still think they make the best most stable drivers out there. I don't know how their fx are with the newer units. But my old Fireface 400 (which I wish I would have never sold!!) didn't have any fx with it. But it was still worth every bit of the $500 I paid for it. That was the most I ever spent on a Audio Interface. Until I got the first Apollo. I got it used for $600. I bought the Apollo I have now brand new. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Carpenter Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Since I moved back over to only using my MacBook Pro. The mega PC was a pita with Jamulus. I am now in Studio One Pro 6 as main still, songs moved over no issues. Logic Pro X 10.7 and Cubase 12 Pro. Each have had a fair number of years from me dating back to the 90s for Cubase. Still a shame CW is not on Mac, because of course I had used that since twelve tone days :). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Smith Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 I had my mind made up it was going to be CbB and Cubase. Since they did away with the dongle things are so much better with respect to using Cubase..........but then I realized some of my better projects were done in Ableton, so I had to scratch my head and wonder why? These were NOT loop based projects. To be clear I am NOT selling Ableton over the others. I think there are several reasons it works for me sometimes. I became familiar with Ableton when I was building accompaniment tracks for a church I once attended. At that time I had ordered some templates for Ableton already made, watched a few videos etc. Unlike other DAWs Ableton has a dual construction approach. Segments can be loops or instrumentals/vocals, entire verses, choruses etc., so the idea of it being for only electronic music is not really accurate. I was one of those guys who never had the very best sense of time, so my stuff would often be 'almost' there, maybe a 1/2 beat off, that sort of thing. I would go into other DAWs to make corrections, bumping measures, clipping time etc. and it was often very time consuming. Trimming segments or making them fit a time or key is probably easiest in Ableton IMHO. Not that it can't be done in the others. Things just seemed top 'fit' better for me using it if recording my own segments. Many DAWs have some kind of an arranger view, but I still think once you get the hang of it, there is no better than Ableton for arranging. CbB has a great arranger, but Ableton's visual layout is second to none on my opinion. You simply drag recorded sections into the places you want them. Then you NEVER have to commit to the linear mode which is more like recording tracks on a regular DAW until you have the arrangement you want. Having said that two monitors make this process a bit easier. Up until you commit to recorded tracks you are simply firing off segments of audio in a pre arranged fashion. After you commit to the tracks in linear mode, you can still erase, modify, re record like any other DAW.....so I guess it's that process I like in addition to ideas I seem to be able to get easier if I'm coming up empty, since I can use a loop or clip as a baseline to other ideas. This method is much cpu lighter than other methods. I have Acid pro 9 and even bought a few of the loop packages for it, it is similar. I keep getting the pop ups to upgrade it to version 11....and for 115 quid it looks tempting, but nowhere near as intuitive as Ableton. I will sometimes update a program just because I like it and I want to support the company. I thought Acid was going to be like Cakewalk and die a slow death, but they are keeping after it and I want to support that. If Cakewalk still charged I would also support them. For less than the cost of an expensive plugin I can do it and probably get a better value in the included things. Studio One is a very functional program....but I always seen it as the Cubase wanna be. Cubase floundered there for a long time, but now they have their act together. I think that program has finally returned to greatness after all of the corporate BS. They can hold the title as DAW for those also involved, or composing for video. Cubase 12 pro offers more options to incorporate video PLUS being a state of the art DAW, I can see myself continuing to use it extensively. CbB is king of DAWs for the masses. All the way from beginners to pros. If it ran on Mac as well as PC there probably would not be any stopping it. As things are now, CbB has established itself as the very best way for ANYONE to get into a great DAW and begin to learn how to use one. You really aren't trading quality in any way up against the others. If I would have had CbB free when I was 16 I would have been on cloud 9! Us old timers remember slow computers and software that you couldn't depend on and paying a lot of money to have and keep the latest DAWs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Smith Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 (edited) On 10/14/2022 at 8:19 PM, Tezza said: I find this to be true for me as well, despite all the internet posts scattered everywhere saying they are all exactly the same, the null police. VST instruments sound different to me in different DAW's. I have read admissions that some DAW makers are making a few tweaks we can't necessarily see or do anything about at just beyond the sound engine level. Since I don't have this info readily available to me I won't attempt to cite a source. Most admissions of this type are very vague but you know they did something. Since most people don't get on well with certain frequencies in the screechy mids, I suspect maybe some gentle roll off might have happened. The differences are not something apparent until more tracks are added and busses are loaded up with multiple sends. I believe I notice the difference though, even on a single guitar track. Nothing a tube plugin couldn't smooth...but that seems to be the thing with DAWs. Everything is additive to the mix bus, including the DAW's personality. On 10/14/2022 at 8:19 PM, Tezza said: 've just upgraded to Cubase 12 and will probably stick with that now, since the dongles gone, it means I can use it on the laptop as well. I think there is something for specializing in one DAW that suits you and really learning how to use it rather than jumping between DAW's but different workflows suit different people. I've sort of got used to Cubase now, despite some of it's weirdness. Also, since I still use the UR44, that integrates well with Cubase and provides me with compression and eq through the UR44 before it hits the DAW with zero latency and also a nice reverb to monitor with, from the hardware with no latency. This is really important to me for vocals, but it might not be as important to others. I don't know why but Cubase never struck me as particularly weird, although I do remember at least a few times having to go on the web to figure out something that should have been very simple to do. Doesn't happen often. For me though, most of it couldn't be simpler for basic recording editing. Especially in midi. The nice thing about most of their updates is they don't mess with the established workflow, so I could use a training video from 3 versions earlier and that function is still there and works the same with a few exceptions. On the sound end of things. I went middle ground with Focusrite. I think it's a great interface for the working man. Maybe just a tad under the RMEs and similar. If I had the money I would likely just update and get a new interface if it was quality rather than try to use the Analog ins of my old interface. I believe the end results would be better. In a pinch though it's probably somewhere in the middle to do so IMHO. I am still in between remodels and I don't have a good place to record acoustic instruments right now. I might still buy myself a better interface in the near future, but as long as I am not recording real acoustics it probably doesn't matter much for me. I can still get a decent acoustic recording on the Scarlett if I had to. Edited October 16, 2022 by Tim Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezza Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 (edited) On 10/16/2022 at 1:31 PM, Grem said: At first I got a used RME Fireface 400. Rock solid and great preamps. Next I stepped up to a UAD Apollo. The USB at first, and now the Thunderbolt 3. Being able to slip a plugin into the Unison slot of the Apollo has changed the way I record and mix. I can put a SSL, a Neve, API, or Helios in the Unison slot, each one sounds different and it gives my trks something I never knew I missed. Dimension! I find that my vocals are much more easily controllable in a mix. My guitar has something about it that helps it sit in a mix better. My Yamaha bass even sounds better going through the Apollo direct to the trk. Getting a true quality preamp, with the ability to change the sound/reaction according to what I put in the Unison slot, gives me so many options. And to be honest, I got my first Apollo with the sole intention of just using it for giving the singer some good reverb to sing with when doing takes. You know, with Zero latency. Then I started really using it and was just floored. I just couldn't believe how good and different each console strip or amp sounded. And playing with zero latency is fabulous. : ) It's like I am really recording in a real studio. RME has better drivers. I still think they make the best most stable drivers out there. I don't know how their fx are with the newer units. But my old Fireface 400 (which I wish I would have never sold!!) didn't have any fx with it. But it was still worth every bit of the $500 I paid for it. That was the most I ever spent on a Audio Interface. Until I got the first Apollo. I got it used for $600. I bought the Apollo I have now brand new. Sounds awesome, that apollo pretty much occupies the top tier of audio interfaces as I understand it and is priced accordingly. Sounds like a souped up UR44. I'm not sure I want to invest that much at the moment and the form factor isn't right for me, due to my space, I have to go for the rack/half rack, square box type of audio interfaces. Also, I'm in the process of upgrading the computer (just waiting for parts) and have upgraded Cubase to 12 and also have been buying microphones. I have been buying them just to see which suit my voice and AC guitar and also in a less than stellar room. I tend to pick up secondhand gear being sold locally around me, if I don't like it I just move it on, usually for the same price as I bought it or more. Just a way to try different options without breaking the bank. That's the theory anyway but in reality, I tend to hold on to stuff I don't really need too long, resulting in a build up of gear. For some reason, I've been buying a bit of stuff lately, probably just need to spruce up the sound a bit. At the moment I'm circling around a Black Lion Audio Auteur mkii, simply because it's available near me so I might grab it tomorrow and see what it does. I'm preferring dynamic mics and handheld condensers at the moment, simply because they kill the horrid room reverb where I am at the moment. They tend to be low output mics and the UR44 struggles a bit to provide the necessary gain. Something like a half rack mic pre would sit nicely next to the ur44 and I have the dedicated line inputs on the back to receive from the mic pre so it seems like an obvious upgrade path. I got a fethead and it did work well in terms of gain for the dynamic mics, I found it added a little bit of lower midrange honk which could be eq'ed out easy enough and then it sounded like the mic without the fethead. I hear you about the zero latency, that's what ties me to the UR44, the fact that I can have reverb, compression and eq on the vocals coming back to my cans with zero latency and processed before the DAW. I put it on the guitars as well. Edited October 19, 2022 by Tezza 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennywtelejazz Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 (edited) The past couple of years have pointed out to me that even though I have done "my best " to stay pretty much current on a lot of my recording software , I may have started to hit a brick wall about 2 years ago when I started noticing how much strain my computers experienced while trying to run much of the new software I had upgraded to.. For me to get the full benefit of using the software I have now I suspect a much more robust computer upgrade would be in order . Kenny Edited October 19, 2022 by kennywtelejazz 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 1 hour ago, kennywtelejazz said: The past couple of years have pointed out to me that even though I have done "my best " to stay pretty much current on a lot of my recording software , I may have started to hit a brick wall about 2 years ago when I started noticing how much strain my computers experienced while trying to run much of the new software I had upgraded to.. For me to get the full benefit of using the software I have now I suspect a much more robust computer upgrade would be in order . I started to notice that effect in 2020 with a computer with a 3rd Gen Intel that I had been using since 2014. It started out with Windows 7, then was upgraded to Windows 10. Adding a SATA SSD helped, but the CPU, motherboard, and memory seemed to be the bottleneck where the newer software started choking. Fast forward to a new build in 2020. Intel 9th Gen Core i5-9600K (6 cores at base clock 3.7 GHz,Turbo to 4.6 GHz) with 16 GB DDR4-2600 RAM and a GeForce GTX 1650 GPU. Bought a new power supply and motherboard, used the existing case, fans, and drives. All the new software ran on the new build without straining! Yay! This year I doubled the RAM to 32 GB, and swapped in a NVMe M.2 SSD drive for the boot and program drive. All of my plugins live on the M.2 boot drive as well, but otherwise all program content and sample folders are on a separate internal SATA SSD. All software starts up and loads in a flash! There eventually comes a time where the need to upgrade the hardware becomes apparent. Hope to get another 5 years out of this one... ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InstrEd Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 38 minutes ago, abacab said: There eventually comes a time where the need to upgrade the hardware becomes apparent. Hope to get another 5 years out of this one... ? Seems that way for us older farts that are use to freezing tracks or rendering them to save CPU strain if necessary. For my simple needs in the present my2n1 laptop with a AMD Ryzen 5700u usually if fine. My only problem is the small screen if I don't have the external screen hooked up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, InstrEd said: My only problem is the small screen if I don't have the external screen hooked up. I didn't buy my laptop for use with audio programs, and if I use it at home it's always hooked up to a 24" external monitor + wireless mouse & keyboard. I use it as a mobile office when I'm traveling, and can barely tolerate the small laptop display panel. But it serves its purpose as a mobile device. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezza Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 7 hours ago, kennywtelejazz said: The past couple of years have pointed out to me that even though I have done "my best " to stay pretty much current on a lot of my recording software , I may have started to hit a brick wall about 2 years ago when I started noticing how much strain my computers experienced while trying to run much of the new software I had upgraded to.. For me to get the full benefit of using the software I have now I suspect a much more robust computer upgrade would be in order . Kenny That's why I am upgrading. I had a 3rd gen i5 with 8gig of ram which seemed to work fine until I upgraded to KU13 and also got some better synths. Everything just got slow and clunky, even though it seemed the CPU was mostly coping, taskmanager said there was a serious RAM problem. I also found I still had a mechanical drive in there which I didn't realize, I thought I had upgraded all the drives to SSD. Also, the editing of video was ok at 1080p but adding efx etc made it a bit slow and clunky. So I am moving from: 3rd gen i5 8gig ram 2 x SSD's + 1 x 7500rpm HD To: 11th gen i7 32gig ram 2 x Nvme + 1 x SSD I think there can be a danger of putting up with slowness as it happens gradually over time, but it can eat away at inspiration, motivation and workflow. I am expecting things will get a bit faster with the new computer but won't know for sure until I try it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennywtelejazz Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, abacab said: I started to notice that effect in 2020 with a computer with a 3rd Gen Intel that I had been using since 2014. It started out with Windows 7, then was upgraded to Windows 10. Adding a SATA SSD helped, but the CPU, motherboard, and memory seemed to be the bottleneck where the newer software started choking. Fast forward to a new build in 2020. Intel 9th Gen Core i5-9600K (6 cores at base clock 3.7 GHz,Turbo to 4.6 GHz) with 16 GB DDR4-2600 RAM and a GeForce GTX 1650 GPU. Bought a new power supply and motherboard, used the existing case, fans, and drives. All the new software ran on the new build without straining! Yay! This year I doubled the RAM to 32 GB, and swapped in a NVMe M.2 SSD drive for the boot and program drive. All of my plugins live on the M.2 boot drive as well, but otherwise all program content and sample folders are on a separate internal SATA SSD. All software starts up and loads in a flash! There eventually comes a time where the need to upgrade the hardware becomes apparent. Hope to get another 5 years out of this one... ? It sounds like you have a good grip and lots of experience on what it takes to use computers for music production . Desktops are the way to go as far as upgrading the way you did . It has been about 10 years for me as far as using a modern desktop goes . That in itself puts me behind the loop as far as specks go ... 8 hours ago, Tezza said: That's why I am upgrading. I had a 3rd gen i5 with 8gig of ram which seemed to work fine until I upgraded to KU13 and also got some better synths. Everything just got slow and clunky, even though it seemed the CPU was mostly coping, taskmanager said there was a serious RAM problem. I also found I still had a mechanical drive in there which I didn't realize, I thought I had upgraded all the drives to SSD. Also, the editing of video was ok at 1080p but adding efx etc made it a bit slow and clunky. So I am moving from: 3rd gen i5 8gig ram 2 x SSD's + 1 x 7500rpm HD To: 11th gen i7 32gig ram 2 x Nvme + 1 x SSD I think there can be a danger of putting up with slowness as it happens gradually over time, but it can eat away at inspiration, motivation and workflow. I am expecting things will get a bit faster with the new computer but won't know for sure until I try it. Congrats on grabbing the bull by the horns and going through the process of setting yourself up with a better system that will meet your needs . I'm not in a position to do anything other than what I'm doing currently at the moment . I'm back n the woodshed working on getting my Jazz Guitar Chops back up to speed by working on tunes . The inspiration for that came about because I just bought the Jazz Guitar of my dreams a Gibson ES 175 CC . 13 hours ago, InstrEd said: Seems that way for us older farts that are use to freezing tracks or rendering them to save CPU strain if necessary. For my simple needs in the present my2n1 laptop with a AMD Ryzen 5700u usually if fine. My only problem is the small screen if I don't have the external screen hooked up. Sure it's been that way for me since my XP days when I had my last Windows desktop . It has been all cwappy lappy's since 2012 ?YIKE S ! I may come back later to discuss the software end of this topic having gotten my hardware issues out of the way . Nice talking w you guys ,.... Kenny Edited October 20, 2022 by kennywtelejazz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 On 10/15/2022 at 11:12 PM, Tony Carpenter said: Since I moved back over to only using my MacBook Pro. The mega PC was a pita with Jamulus. I am now in Studio One Pro 6 as main still, songs moved over no issues. Logic Pro X 10.7 and Cubase 12 Pro. Each have had a fair number of years from me dating back to the 90s for Cubase. Still a shame CW is not on Mac, because of course I had used that since twelve tone days :). I really had my hopes up when they were planning on rolling out a wrapped version that would have worked on Mac. Even though I can't see myself moving back from Logic, I have a long history with Cakewalk - it would have been nice to run it as an alternative, for older projects or to spark creativity without having to bring a PC into the equation. Unfortunately, that free/beta version that they released just before the end of Cakewalk didn't work too well. Incidentally, I still have an old Alienware laptop that a friend gave me running XP and Sonar 8.5 in storage in the studio closet. This is a picture from when I finally sat down to export old projects a few years ago (2016 I think). I should get it out and boot it sometime, just for old times sake... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abacab Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, kennywtelejazz said: Sure it's been that way for me since my XP days when I had my last Windows desktop . It has been all cwappy lappy's since 2012 ?YIKE S ! I may come back later to discuss the software end of this topic having gotten my hardware issues out of the way . Come on back anytime if you decide to revisit desktop hardware! We can probably get you into a budget (entry level+) cwappy™ desktop for audio production for under $700, if you are willing to DIY, and provide your own accessories like monitor, keyboard, mouse, external USB drives, Wi-Fi adapter, etc. Here's an example PC build using an Intel Core i5-11600K 3.9 GHz 6-Core Processor. These components are compatibility matched by the website: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/W2sF3y *No OS is selected here, so unless you have a Windows 7, 8, or 10 license you can migrate over, a fresh Win 10 Home license would run another $99.99. **No GPU component is selected either. This CPU provides integrated Intel UHD Graphics 750, so a GPU is optional if you want to play games or do video production. Edited October 20, 2022 by abacab 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennywtelejazz Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 Thank you for taking the time to show me a possible way to get back into a desktop on the cheap . I appreciate the guidence . Kenny 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveiv Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 Can you download and install Cakewalk without the BandLab Assistant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bapu Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 12 minutes ago, daveiv said: Can you download and install Cakewalk without the BandLab Assistant? I believe that is the case now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveiv Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 25 minutes ago, Bapu said: I believe that is the case now. Cool. That's quite an improvement. I can't stand software managers at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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