Cakewalk - the only DAW with playback delay issue?

[Antre]

24 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

I'm going to have to agree with hockeyjx.   Any PC can be considered gaming PC.  You need to tell us SPECS.   What kind of CHIP is in your PC, GHZ your PC is running, RAM, what kind of Storage are you running ??  Hard drive is SATA HDD, SSD, M.2 SSD, or  NVMe ??  ETC

To find your system specs...

Windows 7, 8, or 10: Use the Run Box

Hit Windows+R to open the Run box. Type “msinfo32” into the “Open” field, and then hit Enter. You should immediately see the System Information panel.

you can ctrl + c to copy from them and ctrl + v to past them in your response.

we need Processor, System Manufacture, System Model, OS Name, Installed Physical Memory (RAM), Available Physical Memory to better understand if your situation.

Are you guys understand the TEST i did, because if you UNDERSTAND you will understand the LOGIC in it. I will post both PC specs but that doesn't matter because other DAWS are working.

Again:

130 tracks, fresh_first install on other PC Win10 in CbB - delay

130 tracks on MY LAPTOP Win8.1 in OTHER DAWS - no delay

both in WASAPI, onboard audio

everybody can replicate this, maybe someone will get the same results

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Antre

[GTsongwriter]

3 minutes ago, Antre said:

Are you guys understand the TEST i did, because if you UNDERSTAND you will understand the LOGIC in it. I will post both PC specs but that doesn't matter.

Again:

130 tracks, fresh_first install on other PC Win10 in CbB - delay

130 tracks on MY LAPTOP Win8.1 in OTHER DAWS - no delay

both in WASAPI, onboard audio

everybody can replicate this, maybe someone will get the same results

 

If you use ASIO, does it delay?

 

[Antre]

5 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

If you use ASIO, does it delay?

 

Yes, on every configuration, with any driver.

 

[GTsongwriter]

6 minutes ago, Antre said:

Yes, on every configuration, with any driver.

 

Then it's your computer setup.  I've heard 15 years ago that Cakewalk runs much better on Intel processors than AMD.   Cakewalk just runs better on certain processors and graphic cards like NVIDIA.  I've been running Cakewalk since the 90s.

Calkwalk tends to like certain aspects of computers and is picky on what you are using.

If you buy the exact laptop I have, set it up just like I have, you'll have no issues.

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by El Diablo

[Antre]

1 minute ago, El Diablo said:

Then it's your computer setup.  I've heard 15 years ago that Cakewalk runs much better on Intel processors than AMD.   Cakewalk just runs better on certain processors and graphic cards like NVIDIA.  I've been running Cakewalk since the 90s.

Maybe, every computer since 2000 and 4 confirugations ago. I remember trying to find same answer on old Sonar forum 10 years ago. It was one guy with same problem but no solution...

[Antre]

6 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Then it's your computer setup.  I've heard 15 years ago that Cakewalk runs much better on Intel processors than AMD.   Cakewalk just runs better on certain processors and graphic cards like NVIDIA.  I've been running Cakewalk since the 90s.

Calkwalk tends to like certain aspects of computers and is picky on what you are using.

If you buy the exact laptop I have, set it up just like I have, you'll have no issues.

 

And, apparently, my son computer setup...

 

[Will.]

2 hours ago, Antre said:

Read the post you quoted again - did I mention VSTi?

Well then, buy a box of kleenex and move on. 

[Antre]

5 minutes ago, Will. said:

Well then, buy a box of kleenex and move on. 

Read the post you quoted again - did I mention crying?

[GTsongwriter]

14 minutes ago, Antre said:

And, apparently, my son computer setup...

 

no blame to son... neither of you know how picky cakewalk is and nobody wanted to admit it.

Like I promised...

My test video:

Cakewalk 50, 100, 150, 200. 400 Track Speed Test

https://youtu.be/wnVLcP-rEkU

I don't know how to embed it.

Edited September 25, 2022 by El Diablo

[Antre]

8 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

no blame to son... neither of you know how picky cakewalk is and nobody wanted to admit it.

Like I promised...

My test video:

Cakewalk 50, 100, 150, 200. 400 Track Speed Test

https://youtu.be/wnVLcP-rEkU

I don't know how to embed it.

Thats nice to see, thanks

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Antre

[Starship Krupa]

10 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

no blame to son... neither of you know how picky cakewalk is and nobody wanted to admit it.

Like I promised...

My test video:

Cakewalk 50, 100, 150, 200. 400 Track Speed Test

https://youtu.be/wnVLcP-rEkU

I don't know how to embed it.

This is not necessarily an apples-to-apples test. Your test uses the same audio file for every track.

If the issue has something to do with reading the audio data off the disk, Cakewalk streams every audio file in a project in real time. If Antre's project has 130 unique tracks, that is reading 130 different audio files at the same time, that is a very different test condition.

If someone has a project with over 50 different audio tracks, check that, observe how fast it goes into Play.

And please, fellow forum folks, lighten up. The issue is that Antre has observed this issue across every release of Sonar/CbB for years, on multiple PC's. The idea that a single computer he's using is somehow unique and causing a problem is spurious. He's (I am presuming gender) not threatening our favorite toy, he would like to be able to use it more effectively. Testing similar projects across multiple DAW's and computers is reasonably diligent troubleshooting. He has way more experience with Sonar/Cakewalk than I do.

@Antre, do post the specs of one of the computers that's exhibiting the behavior, preferably the fastest one you have. Especially memory, video card and audio data drive. If nothing else, it'll reassure the skeptics that you have plenty of computer power.

[azslow3]

2 hours ago, Antre said:

1.

I started to add tracks (audio files, no plugins, no VST, no VST3, no VSTi, no DX, no...)  - 50 tracks - no delay.

100 tracks - maybe a little bit...

130 tracks - little delay on PLAY and big delay/meter freeze on STOP

130 tracks/pro channels ON - little delay on PLAY and HUGE delay on STOP

2.

I added  same 130 audio tracks to Reaper and Soundbridge on MY LAPTOP 

Reaper plays and stops INSTANTLY

Soundbridge plays and stop INSTANTLY (but with pops and glitches)

160 tracks, each with single audio file (2x a set of 80 lengthy audio files imported into a project) - no delay on play nor stop.

With "pro channel ON". Pro Channel is FX rack, "on" can be 1-2-100-etc. plug-ins per track... I have enabled 4 modules on all 160 tracks - no delay on play, huge delay on stop (interface freeze).  Well, with FXes on (Pro Channel) stop delay is from them (in my case). Global bypassing FXes eliminate it completely.

REAPER has different graphic framework and completely different audio playback engine. In practice that means it can work fine with "half broken" graphic drivers on not audio optimized systems. I mean that is not a good choice for comparison with Cakewalk.

 

[msmcleod]

Take a look the following settings in Preferences, and see if changing them makes a difference:

From the help:

"Suspend Audio Engine When Cakewalk Is Not in Focus. This option allows other software to access device drivers. When this option is checked, other software can access device drivers when Cakewalk is not the focus of Windows." 

    - If this is set to true, Cakewalk will be closing/re-opening the audio drivers every time it loses/gains focus.

"Always Stream Audio Through FX. If any tracks or buses contain active plug-in effects, the audio engine will be activated and stream silence through the effects, even if the tracks have no audio data or Input Echo enabled. You will typically only disable this option if you want to conserve a bit of CPU processing if you play a project that contains lots of empty audio tracks with effects. There are several benefits to having this option enabled:

• Any effect with a “tail” (reverb, delay, etc.) will finish playing when playback is stopped.
• Effects will respond to automation envelopes, even on empty audio tracks.
• Many plug-ins do not update their UI properly until they receive audio input."

   - If this is NOT checked, then the audio engine will be disabled when you stop playback. This will create a delay when starting playback again - the length of this delay is also affected by the option below:

"Always Open All Devices. With this option checked, Cakewalk opens all enabled stereo pairs of audio outputs as soon as you press play or turn on the audio engine. Any pairs that don’t have any tracks feeding them stream silence, but are still ready for use. So if you then change a track's output assignment on the fly Cakewalk doesn’t have to reopen a device, which can cause gaps in playback."

   - If this is checked, all device channels will be opened at once, so if you have a large number of them this could take time.  As long as "Suspend Audio Engine When Cakewalk Is Not In Focus" is unchecked, and "Always Stream Audio Through FX" is checked, this shouldn't be a problem, as it's only done once.  But if this isn't the case, then it could take more time to start playback.  In most cases, it's preferable that this option is enabled, and you simply disable the channels you're not using.
 

[David Baay]

17 hours ago, azslow3 said:

I have enabled 4 modules on all 160 tracks - no delay on play, huge delay on stop (interface freeze).  Well, with FXes on (Pro Channel) stop delay is from them (in my case).

Okay. yes, I can repro that a project with hundreds  of active Prochannel modules exhibits a momentary UI response 'freeze' after stopping the transport (which happens instantaneously) - about 2 seconds for 400 modules across 100 tracks in my case. Once the UI refreshes, re-starting the transport is instantaneous. With fewer Prochannel modules, the 'freeze' is proportionally shorter (e.g. half a second for 100 modules).

[Antre]

On 9/25/2022 at 11:59 PM, Starship Krupa said:

This is not necessarily an apples-to-apples test. Your test uses the same audio file for every track.

If the issue has something to do with reading the audio data off the disk, Cakewalk streams every audio file in a project in real time. If Antre's project has 130 unique tracks, that is reading 130 different audio files at the same time, that is a very different test condition.

If someone has a project with over 50 different audio tracks, check that, observe how fast it goes into Play.

And please, fellow forum folks, lighten up. The issue is that Antre has observed this issue across every release of Sonar/CbB for years, on multiple PC's. The idea that a single computer he's using is somehow unique and causing a problem is spurious. He's (I am presuming gender) not threatening our favorite toy, he would like to be able to use it more effectively. Testing similar projects across multiple DAW's and computers is reasonably diligent troubleshooting. He has way more experience with Sonar/Cakewalk than I do.

@Antre, do post the specs of one of the computers that's exhibiting the behavior, preferably the fastest one you have. Especially memory, video card and audio data drive. If nothing else, it'll reassure the skeptics that you have plenty of computer power.

thanks man for your kind words,

My test was with 20 unique audio tracks, coppied to 130.

and thanks to all suggestions and the people who tested this and prove my point in some degree.

During the years on all configurations my work was always like this. This days also. I start to work on a project, say mix a song. I do all the work we enjoy, adding fx, fiddling eq-s and compressors, prochannels modules. I'm all into work and music and at some point something start to bather me. Play/stop delay is here.

And please don't tell me that it is my computer, audio card/settings or SSD/HDD because other DAWS are working without this issue. That's the point of my post.

I encourage some members with older configuration to test this. People who can replicate this behavior with strong configuration with 160 or more audio tracks are still proving that CbB is only DAW with this issue and can in some scenario with really big projects experience this.

I still think that is something unique  to CbB. And I would love to maybe find the solution - without changing my hardware setup. Otherwise I will use other DAW as some of you intelligently suggested.

Maybe it is prochannel, lets find out. But I tried Harrison Mixbus which have eq/s and compressors on every channel and bus. No issue. 

Thanks!

 

[Byron Dickens]

7 hours ago, Antre said:

And please don't tell me that it is my computer, audio card/settings or SSD/HDD because other DAWS are working without this issue. That's the point of my post.

Go back and reread David's post on "interoperability."

 

You also keep mentioning your high-speed, low-drag gaming computer. Gaming is an entirely different set of requirements than audio production.

 

Also, a stab in the dark here. I switched from Open Office to Libre Office. For a time, I had both installed and it took an inordinate amount of time to open a document in Libre Office.  A simple one page text document. Until I finally uninstalled Open Office. Now they load instantly.

Edited September 27, 2022 by bdickens

[GTsongwriter]

3 hours ago, bdickens said:

Go back and reread David's post on "interoperability."

 

You also keep mentioning your high-speed, low-drag gaming computer. Gaming is an entirely different set of requirements than audio production.

 

Also, a stab in the dark here. I switched from Open Office to Libre Office. For a time, I had both installed and it took an inordinate amount of time to open a document in Libre Office.  A simple one page text document. Until I finally uninstalled Open Office. Now they load instantly.

Let me just say this.... Cakewalk DOES have minimum requirements:

OP = Antre

https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk?lang=en

Windows 8.1 or higher (64-bit only)  >> OP says he has Windows 8.1

Multi-core Intel or AMD CPU >> OP doesn't know if his system is Multi-core because he hasn't told us the CHIP yet

8GB RAM >> OP hasn't said how much RAM he has

3GB free disk space >> OP has not disclosed his HD free space

1280x800 screen resolution >> OP hasn't mentioned this

ASIO compatible hardware is recommended >> OP says he uses WASAPI onboard audio AND not the recommended ASIO compatible hardware

 

 

Windows 8.1 can run on a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III

The Pentium 3 is also a single core processor which doesn't meet the Multi-core requirement.

 

 

My old Atari 130 XE is a gaming PC also from the 1980s, do you think it can run Cakewalk?

Edited September 27, 2022 by El Diablo

[Antre]

My laptop:

HP ProBook Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 -3210M CPU @ 2.50GHz

RAM 4.00 GB

HDD 100 GB Free

PC (where I replicate issue with 130 tracks - these 130 tracks are working on MY LAPTOP in OTHER DAWS)

AMD Ryzen 7 2700X 8 core

RAM 16 GB

SSD 80 GB Free

I tested both with WASAPI but it is same in my studio with dedicated ASIO

[Antre]

1 hour ago, El Diablo said:

Let me just say this.... Cakewalk DOES have minimum requirements:

OP = Antre

https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk?lang=en

Windows 8.1 or higher (64-bit only)  >> OP says he has Windows 8.1

Multi-core Intel or AMD CPU >> OP doesn't know if his system is Multi-core because he hasn't told us the CHIP yet

8GB RAM >> OP hasn't said how much RAM he has

3GB free disk space >> OP has not disclosed his HD free space

1280x800 screen resolution >> OP hasn't mentioned this

ASIO compatible hardware is recommended >> OP says he uses WASAPI onboard audio AND not the recommended ASIO compatible hardware

 

 

Windows 8.1 can run on a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III

The Pentium 3 is also a single core processor which doesn't meet the Multi-core requirement.

 

 

My old Atari 130 XE is a gaming PC also from the 1980s, do you think it can run Cakewalk?

 

[Byron Dickens]

Minimum specs get you minimal performance.