Extertnal Insert - De Coupling not working

[El Gato Loco]

Hi there.
Not sure if what Im expecting and doing is correct (I'm doing some test at the moment)

I have my new dbx 266xs compressor and I would like to use the 2 compressor Channels independently as 2 different External Inserts for 2 different Tracks in the DAW.

In my Focusrite 18i20 I've connected:

- channel 5 output to the DBX 1st Channel Input and then back to channel 5 input in the 18i20 ,

- channel 6 output to the DBX 2nd Channel Input and then  back to channel 6 input in the 18i20

I have 2 tracks on Cakewalk and I want to send each of them to the 2 different DBX channels so I can set two different compressor settings.

On the 1st TRack I'm creating an external insert (MONO) and using the Focusrite output 5 as my SEND channel and the Focustire input 5 as the RETURN channel

On the 2nd Track, I'm creating another External Insert but Output 6 of the Interface IS NOT AVAILABLE in the DROP DOWN of the External Insert Plugin

So it seems Channel 5 and 6 are considered as 1 Output and even if I select Mono in the External Plugin, I'm not able to decouple the signal 

Hope someone can help. 

Regards

 

[David Baay]

It's a longstanding and frequently lamented limitation of External Insert that each instance takes a stereo pair of outputs. You'll need to use one side of two pairs of outputs.

[msmcleod]

This is how to do this:

Let's assume you've two audio tracks:  Guitar 1 and Guitar 2...

1. Set the output of Guitar 1 to a new Aux track  ( Aux 1 )
2. Rename this track to "dbx 266"
3. Now set the output of Guitar 1 to a new Bus,
4. Rename this bus to "Silent" and turn it's volume down all the way.
5. Set the output of dbx 266 and Guitar 2 to the Silent bus.
6. Create a new send on Guitar 1 to "dbx 266 L", and pan it 100% L
7. Create a new send on Guitar 2 to "dbx 266 R", and pan it 100% R
8. Put your external insert in the FX bin of the "dbx 266" aux track 
9. Set the input / output of the external insert to Focusrite 5/6
10. Create two new audio tracks:  "Guitar 1 ret" and "Guitar 2 ret"
11. Set the input of "Guitar 1 ret"  to "dbx 266 L"
12. Set the input of "Guitar 2 ret" to "dbx 266 R"

What is happening...
Guitar 1 track is going to the Left input of "dbx 266", and being sent out via Focusrite output 5, and coming back in on Focusrite input 5
Guitar 2 track is going to the Right input of "dbx 266", and being sent out via Focusrite output 6, and coming back in on Focusrite input 6

"Guitar 1 ret" is getting the Left output of "dbx 266" (i.e. the effected signal coming in from Focusrite input 5)
"Guitar 2 ret" is getting the Right output of "dbx 266" (i.e. the effected signal coming in from Focusrite input 6)

For controlling guitar volume, use the fader on the "Guitar 1 ret" / "Guitar 2 ret" tracks.  You can also use the FX bin in these tracks for any processing AFTER your dbx 266.

[El Gato Loco]

7 hours ago, David Baay said:

It's a longstanding and frequently lamented limitation of External Insert that each instance takes a stereo pair of outputs. You'll need to use one side of two pairs of outputs.

Do you think it can be solved using the Odeus Asio link? 

 

[msmcleod]

Just now, El Gato Loco said:

Do you think it can be solved using the Odeus Asio link? 

 

No - this is something completely different - it is for combining several separate audio interfaces.  It won't change the fact that Cakewalk's external insert is stereo only.

To have two separate mono inserts, use the method I described in my earlier post.

[El Gato Loco]

I will Bro. Really appreciate your help. 

One last thing. 

Is this a limitation in Cakewalk only?  If yes, and other DAWs are managing this the way it should, has this been filed as a Bug to Cakewalk's development team? In case it wasn't , how can I raise it? 

TYA

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by El Gato Loco

[msmcleod]

3 minutes ago, El Gato Loco said:

I will Bro. Really appreciate your help. 

One last thing. 

Is this a limitation in Cakewalk only?  If yes, and other DAWs are managing this the way it should, has this been filed as a Bug to Cakewalk's development team? 

 

I'm not sure to be honest... although I do use other DAW's from time to time, I rarely use external inserts.

It's very much a limitation rather than a bug.  Back when it was implemented, I suspect the primary use case was to allow the use external stereo reverbs, as reverb VST's are so CPU intensive and computers were slower; and the thought was that external inserts were the exception rather than the rule, so having to sacrifice a stereo pair for each external insert wouldn't be a huge deal.

Mono inserts are in our backlog of things to do, but it's a tricky thing to implement, and I've no idea when we'll get around to implementing it.

The steps I've described will however allow you to use external mono inserts, albeit with the inconvenience of having your tracks split up into two before/after the external effects.

If you don't want your tracks split up, and you're not using channels 7/8 on your focusrite, then you could easily use an external insert on both tracks - i.e. your first track would use in/out 5 & 6  ( connect the dbx to in/out 5 with in/out 6 not being used), and your second track would use in/out 7 & 8 ( connect the dbx to in/out 7 with in/out 8 not being used).

[David Baay]

I started to write a solution using an Aux track in my original response, but then back-tracked because I wasn't immediately sure how I would manage the returns in a transparent way, and I knew whatever I came up with was going to be unwieldy at best.  As much as I like getting creative to make things happen, if the spare outputs are available, I'd be inclined to just bite the bullet and sacrifice a couple.

[El Gato Loco]

6 hours ago, msmcleod said:

This is how to do this:

Let's assume you've two audio tracks:  Guitar 1 and Guitar 2...

1. Set the output of Guitar 1 to a new Aux track  ( Aux 1 )
2. Rename this track to "dbx 266"
3. Now set the output of Guitar 1, and Guitar 2 to a new Bus,
4. Rename this bus to "Silent" and turn it's volume down all the way.
4. Create a new send on Guitar 1 to "dbx 266 L"
5. Create a new send on Guitar 2 to "dbx 266 R"
6. Put your external insert in the FX bin of the "dbx 266" aux track 
7. Set the input / output of the external insert to Focusrite 5/6
8. Create two new audio tracks:  "Guitar 1 ret" and "Guitar 2 ret"
9. Set the input of "Guitar 1 ret"  to "dbx 266 L"
10. Set the input of "Guitar 2 ret" to "dbx 266 R"

What is happening...
Guitar 1 track is going to the Left input of "dbx 266", and being sent out via Focusrite output 5, and coming back in on Focusrite input 5
Guitar 2 track is going to the Right input of "dbx 266", and being sent out via Focusrite output 6, and coming back in on Focusrite input 6

"Guitar 1 ret" is getting the Left output of "dbx 266" (i.e. the effected signal coming in from Focusrite input 5)
"Guitar 2 ret" is getting the Right output of "dbx 266" (i.e. the effected signal coming in from Focusrite input 6)

For controlling guitar volume, use the fader on the "Guitar 1 ret" / "Guitar 2 ret" tracks.  You can also use the FX bin in these tracks for any processing AFTER your dbx 266.
 

Just to make sure 

Should I have to create just 1 AUX track for Guit 1?

or 1 for each of the 2 guitars and name them as DBX 266L and DBX 266R?

Asking because I do not understand these:

4. Create a new send on Guitar 1 to "dbx 266 L"
5. Create a new send on Guitar 2 to "dbx 266 R"

Should I do this using the PAN feature of the sends?

Because While I see DBX 255 L / DBX 266 R / DBX 266 S as inputs, these are not available in the sends.

UPDATE:

 

Don't think my question above make sense because if I create 2 AUX then I cannot insert the external send on both.

 

So

Creating only one AUX and following your complete instructions I have the 2 guitars compressed by the two separate channels of the Compressors.,

The downside is that each guitar is panned totally L (GUIT 1) and R (Guit2)

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by El Gato Loco

[msmcleod]

Ah, yes - you should be using the send pan feature.  Set Guitar 1 to 100% L, and Guitar 2 to 100% R.

Remember to set the inputs of your return tracks to DBX L / DBX R respectively.  This will make them mono.  If they're set to DBX S, then that's why it's coming out as hard panned.  Also note the SILENCE bus to avoid the pre-compressed guitar coming out of the mains from the source tracks, and also the post-compressed sound coming out of the mains from the DBX aux track.

[El Gato Loco]

Quote

Remember to set the inputs of your return tracks to DBX L / DBX R respectively.  This will make them mono.  If they're set to DBX S, then that's why it's coming out as hard panned.

The return tracks are set to DBX / L (GUIT1) and DBX / R (GUIT2) and they result hard panned

 

[msmcleod]

2 minutes ago, El Gato Loco said:

The return tracks are set to DBX / L (GUIT1) and DBX / R (GUIT2) and they result hard panned

 

Is the aux track's output set to the SILENCE bus?

[El Gato Loco]

 

Quote

Is the aux track's output set to the SILENCE bus?

yes

Edited August 29, 2022 by El Gato Loco

[msmcleod]

Something isn't right here... I've set up the same myself and getting the same result.  I think its a bug.  I'll need to look into it further.

In the meantime, if you can sacrifice input/outputs 6 and 8,  just use input/outputs 5  and 7, ditch all the aux tracks, and use a separate external insert on each track.

The external insert is restricted to stereo pairs, so you can use the left of 5/6  (i.e. 5) for one external insert,, and the left of 7/8 ( i.e. 7 ) on the other.

[jesse g]

These are the little quirks in Cakewalk that makes me want to move on to another DAW.  However, I think about the time I spent learning how to use it which keeps me from trying something new. I don't want to take the time to learn how to become familiar with using a new DAW.

[abacab]

1 hour ago, jesse g said:

These are the little quirks in Cakewalk that makes me want to move on to another DAW.  However, I think about the time I spent learning how to use it which keeps me from trying something new. I don't want to take the time to learn how to become familiar with using a new DAW.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AndertonS1-e--sweetwater-publishing-the-huge-book-of-studio-one-tips-and-tricks-e-book-by-craig-anderton

"Written by industry legend (and award-winning engineer) Craig Anderton, this clearly written, profusely illustrated e-book gives you the tips and tricks you need to maximize Studio One’s potential in your projects."

[jesse g]

Abacab,

I guess you are telling me to go ahead and switch to Studio One 5?  LOL ?

[abacab]

2 minutes ago, jesse g said:

Abacab,

I guess you are telling me to go ahead and switch to Studio One 5?  LOL ?

Just kidding of course. A fine example of Craig still putting in the hard work like he did to explain the workings of Cakewalk Sonar to us mere mortals... ?

[jesse g]

I have to say, Studio One use of External Hardware using Pipeline XT is much, much better for a smoother workflow.

 

 

[El Gato Loco]

Outboard Gear management in Cakewalk is a PAIN IN THE ***** and is the reason why I'm looking to other DAWS too.

Studio One 5 has the I/O management and the PIPELINE Inserts that are so SWEET!
Would be great to have Cakewalk implementing this instead of answering that External Insert was designed to use REverbs at the time PCs has few resources.

I really hope Cakewalk development team take in serious consideration reviewind the External Insert plugin to work as it should (Not eating 2 channels at a time)