CW freezes when Input Echo is engaged

[Michael McBroom]

This problem suddenly cropped up yesterday. I don't know what I did to cause it to start doing this, but as long as this situation continues, I'm unable to monitor or record audio.

When the Input Echo is engaged, I get a popup that reads "Unable to open audio record device. Device may not support the current project's audio format or may be in use. For help, please visit:" (cakewalk's support web address)

After reading this, I made sure no other applications that might use my audio interface were resident. I then went into Preferences and tried every available driver mode. It didn't make a difference. Then I closely studied in Preferences all the settings that were even peripherally related to this, and I couldn't find any that I might have changed.

This was occurring with my MOTU M4 audio interface, a device I am very fond of, but I was just about ready to blame everything on the device until I decided to do my due diligence. I hooked up another good audio interface that I know works and works well. And after I had it configured, I got the same identical popup.

So it's a relief that it isn't my audio interface. Well, I suppose it's theoretically possible that both could fail at the same time, but I'm not willing to go there just yet. No, I think I managed to set something wrong somewhere and chances are, I didn't even realize what I'd done. I just looked through all the menu options and  drop downs and nothing's jumping out at me as to what's causing this.

So, once again, I've come before you kind folks, hat in hand, hoping you can figure out what I managed to foul up this time.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Michael McBroom

[RBH]

Have you tried with a new project?   Is there any chance you have a midi feedback loop occurring?

[John Vere]

First there’s no reason to use input echo on Audio tracks. You should use the interface direct monitoring feature. I have the M4. If I use the input echo that’s exactly what I get, an echo. This is because you’re hearing the audio system latency which will be around 10 milliseconds. 
I set the input monitor control at 12 o clock or sometimes around 10 o clock if I want my vocals a bit louder than the track playback. 
 

But that said there’s no reason you can’t turn it on.  Make sure all the settings are correct in preferences. ASIO and your buffer settings etc. 

[stepd]

A few things to try:

Rename your aud.ini file and let cakewalk recreate it.

Try a different USB port (unless you're already using USB-C with the MOTU and USB-A with the other interface).

If you have onboard audio like Realtek enabled, try temporarily disabling it.

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, if this is freezing, this is saying driver issue to me. Even if you're not using the driver, just having certain things installed can cause big issues for a lot of audio apps, Cakewalk included.

I'd go into the registry and delete any device other than the one you're using in here:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\ASIO

That said, if it's just not playing and the driver is tied up, you'd be surprised at how some apps like to hog stuff in the background. Chrome is a great example of that.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Lord Tim

[Michael McBroom]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. It's getting late here and time for me to power stuff down. So I'll take up your suggestions in the morning and see what I might find.

 

[Kurre]

Maybe a mismatch between audio specs in pref and the audio clip?

[David Baay]

Make sure your Playback and Record Timing Masters are I/O drivers on the same device.

Try renaming AUD.INI and letting CW build a new one (I like to do this manually, but 'Reset Config to Defaults button in Preferences > Audio > Config File will do it for you).  If successful, compare to the two files to find the root cause.

I would also advise doing the opposite of this:

14 hours ago, stepd said:

If you have onboard audio like Realtek enabled, try temporarily disabling it.

I always recommend leaving onboard audio enabled and set as the default audio device for use by Windows, browsers and other generic multimedia apps so they don't try to grab your interface driver.

Edited August 24, 2022 by David Baay

[stepd]

1 hour ago, David Baay said:

I would also advise doing the opposite of this:

I always recommend leaving onboard audio enabled and set as the default audio device for use by Windows, browsers and other generic multimedia apps so they don't try to grab your interface driver.

But definitely don't skip the step of temporarily disabling it in device manager. You're looking for a possible driver conflict.

The MOTU is actually excellent at sharing audio with the OS and has a loopback feature that enables any sound from Windows to show up as an input in DAWs.

[Lord Tim]

Bear in mind though, if it turns out to be an active ASIO driver for the Realtek, it's the actual driver itself that's the problem, not the device, so it'll cause issues regardless if things are activated or not. But I do agree, it can't hurt to do that as a troubleshooting step, though, since it takes only a couple of seconds to try it out. 

The thing that isn't clear yet is what's actually happening. Not playing because the driver is tied up is an entirely different set of potential causes as opposed to Cakewalk's  timeline freezing when the echo is enabled. Not being able to access the driver is usually because something else has control of it. Freezing is usually a badly written driver like the Realtek ASIO driver or something like the Magix or Steingberg Low Latency driver. Even just having those on your system is asking for misery.

The other thing we need to be sure of is that the proper manufacturer's ASIO drivers for the MOTU are being used rather than WASAPI or WDM or ASIO4ALL or anything crazy like that. There's a much higher chance of something else hijacking the driver if you're not using the proper ASIO one.

[Michael McBroom]

Okay, I'm finally getting back to the task at hand here. I'll try to address your questions and comments in order.

RBH, it doesn't matter which project I try to record or monitor.  They all deliver the message I outlined above.

John, thanks for reminding me to let the interface do the heavy lifting. I now have it dialed in. Unfortunately, still no joy. If I attempt to record something, I don't even have to start the song. If I click on the track's record icon , then the transport record icon, the above message is delivered and the system freezes until I unclick both icons.

Lord Tim, I would prefer, if at all possible, not to have to restrict the driver mode to ASIO only. As I'm sure you aware, with ASIO it's ASIO or nothing. There are times when I need this machine to share. I first ran into ASIO's recalcitrant behavior when I was attempting to run an amp's USB Line Out into my machine. ASIO insisted the amp was a synth, thus not allowing me to record its audio.  I've been using WASAPI (shared) for the past 8 months without issues. Also, perhaps it  bears repeating, I tried all 5 driver modes that CW supports, and it didn't make any difference with any of them.

Stepd and David, I did as both of you suggested and renamed aud.ini. No difference. David, I also double-checked that the Playback and Record timing masters are set to the current interface (the MOTU M4 in this case).  Also, way back when I first set this machine up, I disabled the on-board audio. It hasn't been a problem and the MOTU has been sharing audio duties without issues. Still does. Except CW doesn't seem to recognize it when it's time to record. It bears mentioning here that the other interface that I set up, to see if it was the MOTU or not that was the problem, behaved in the exact same manner. It plays audio coming through the machine just fine, and plays CW's audio just fine. It just doesn't want to record or monitor audio with either interface I've tried.

Lord Tim, I just noticed your most recent note, so I'll address it separately. Please note that there has been no issue with monitoring or recording audio prior to a couple of days ago. So the Realtek, or whatever chip is on board this machine's mobo, is not the issue. So, I can't see how its driver suddenly would be. Unless the latest Win10 update futzed things up. Hmm, didn't think about that.

After John reminded me how to configure my MOTU properly, I was then able to determine that the same situation occurs even if I don't have the Input Echo engaged. All I have to do is set it up to record, and it locks up. I don't have Magix or Steinberger drivers on this system. I've just reinstalled the latest drivers for the MOTU. There's nothing in its operational parameters that I'm aware of that allow me to select the driver mode. It's worth noting, however, one of the main reasons why I bought the MOTU was because it supported more driver modes than ASIO.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Michael McBroom

[Byron Dickens]

 

[stepd]

29 minutes ago, Michael McBroom said:

Lord Tim, I would prefer, if at all possible, not to have to restrict the driver mode to ASIO only. As I'm sure you aware, with ASIO it's ASIO or nothing. There are times when I need this machine to share. I first ran into ASIO's recalcitrant behavior when I was attempting to run an amp's USB Line Out into my machine. ASIO insisted the amp was a synth, thus not allowing me to record its audio.  I've been using WASAPI (shared) for the past 8 months without issues. Also, perhaps it  bears repeating, I tried all 5 driver modes that CW supports, and it didn't make any difference with any of them.

After John reminded me how to configure my MOTU properly, I was then able to determine that the same situation occurs even if I don't have the Input Echo engaged. All I have to do is set it up to record, and it locks up. I don't have Magix or Steinberger drivers on this system. I've just reinstalled the latest drivers for the MOTU. There's nothing in its operational parameters that I'm aware of that allow me to select the driver mode. It's worth noting, however, one of the main reasons why I bought the MOTU was because it supported more driver modes than ASIO.

You set the driver mode in cakewalk. Press "p" with cakewalk open, click Playback and Recording in left pane and switch Driver Mode to ASIO. Change buffer size in the ASIO panel under the Driver Settings tab in the left pane. I would definitely use ASIO over any other mode.

EDIT: Missed the part where you said you already tried other modes, although I'm not really sure if you're talking about the MOTU or the amp output. Does the amp show up as its own input?

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by stepd

[Michael McBroom]

Hey, stepd, thanks, I already know how to do all that stuff. I've been using CW products since Pro Audio 8 on a Win98 machine. I may not be a power user, but I do know where most stuff is. Well, mostly for the most part. I made the comment about the MOTU's configuration because I have yet another audio interface that does require its driver mode be set up  apart from the application it's being used in.

Yeah, well, you know what's got me puzzled is why WASAPI (shared) worked so well for so long and then suddenly it didn't.

But since every one of you kept harping about ASIO, I decided to go back and try it once again. And a curious thing happened. CW claimed my MOTU wasn't recognized and configured my other audio device instead.  I checked, and sure enough, the MOTU drivers weren't "checkable." So, I got the bright idea, what if none of the drivers were checked? So I unchecked the drivers for the other device, then ran ASIO again, and this time it came back where the MOTU was recognized. So, I checked its drivers.

Then I went to a tune that I just happened to have open, inserted an audio track, clicked on the two record icons and, hey! No lockup! And it was even laying down a record line. So I fired up my guitar and tried it out, and sure enough, it is now recording audio. Again. But what changed where now I have to run ASIO?

One other thing I think I'm gonna try out is setting up WASAPI (shared) again, and deselect all drivers, then run it, and see if I can select the MOTU drivers, and if I can, whether or not it'll let me record in that mode. Well, I'll know soon enough. For now, I'm just glad I've got my audio back.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Michael McBroom

[John Vere]

OH, so your using WASAPI instead of ASIO? I can see why if your trying to use another Audio device but I hate to tell you this but WASAPI has a few issues. First and foremost is it will record all audio tracks about 1/16 note late. At least on my system this was the case when I did a loopback test. And it is probably why your having the issue 

So simple test is to set it back on ASIO mode and see if the problem goes away. Nothing to loose and everything to gain. 

EDIT: Good I see you did this we were typing the same time

Funny I'm just in the process of making a new Tutorial titled " Other Audio Devices" where I am demonstrating using things thaat don't really work with Cakewalk like bad ASIO drivers, USB mikes and guess what, a Guitar amp with a USB connection. 

[Michael McBroom]

Well, that amp is still with me but is pretty much history now. It doesn't get used for anything anymore. I should sell it.

That 1/16 note delay you cite -- I was just always figuring it was a rather relaxed 10-12 milliseconds.  Depending on the tempo of the piece, it's a delay that can be compensated for. But I'd just as soon not have to.

So are any of the other modes worth using? WDM/KS? WASAPI  (Exclusive)? How about MME (32-bit)?

 

[Byron Dickens]

Just now, Michael McBroom said:

So are any of the other modes worth using? WDM/KS? WASAPI  (Exclusive)? How about MME (32-bit)?

No.

ASIO is the only driver mode suitable if you are going to record external sound sources.

[Lord Tim]

WASAPI *can* be usable for certain interfaces (it works fine on my Scarlett 18i20, although it doesn't show all of the inputs and the latency isn't quite as good, but on other interfaces I've tried it's very poor compared to their ASIO drivers. Ironically it works great with a Realtek), however it's asking for a bunch of issues if you're not careful. Potential sync problems like John mentioned, clock drift if you use it with multiple devices, and - as it looks like has happened - it's easy for something in Windows (another app, a system update that's changed your sound routing, etc) to take control of the driver and shut you down.

Additionally, WASAPI Shared bakes in 10ms latency no matter what as a minimum, so you'll need to use Exclusive mode to get it lower if you're planning any kind of input monitoring.

WDM and MME are the last resort modes and will give you terrible performance. Definitely don't use those.

The correct ASIO driver sidesteps all of those things, but of course it only allows one device at a time. That's definitely the one you should be aiming for unless you really know the interface will work OK with WASAPI, you're up for checking system settings every time you have an update and you have a good reason to want to go through that kind of stress at all.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Lord Tim

[Michael McBroom]

I used ASIO for years, but I got a bad taste in my mouth over ASIO4All -- I hated the way it took over my machine and wouldn't let go. 

I've never really had a requirement for non-exclusivity. It all started because of a new amp I bought that had a USB out, which promised a clean signal devoid of amp hum, etc. Only problem was, the interface I was using at the time used ASIO -- 4All, no less, cuz it was "class compliant" and didn't come with its own drivers. And when I tried using the amp, ASIO showed the amp as a synth -- because it was coming in via USB. So that's when I began shopping for an interface that wasn't restricted to ASIO.  But in the meantime I'd worked out a way to record  my amp miced and it was working very well. In fact, I used this method for a couple of tunes I recorded.  But then fast forward to about 6 months ago, when I picked up a Marshall DSL40 cr, which uses what it calls "emulated out." Well, I didn't know if I liked the sound of that, but at least it was 1/4" phono and not USB, so I was able to run it through my MOTU. And, what do you know? I really like the sounds I get from the amp this way.  So, now I have no use for that other amp, nor for that other interface that required I used ASIO4All. 

Even though my MOTU is a 4-channel device, I think the times when I even use 2 channels will be rare. So ASIO's exclusivity quirk is something I can live with now.

[John Vere]

Just for clarification 
ASIO 4all is not ASIO it is actually WDM mode in a wrapper that makes it look like ASIO but it’s performance is just as bad as WDM. WASAPI modes both outperform WDM. 
 

Only a proper well written ASIO driver will report the system latency to Cakewalk and then Cakewalk adjusts the recording sync so that your new audio recordings line up perfectly with the project. 
I think there’s a lot of people out there using on board or badly designed interfaces, like USB mikes, that are totally unaware of this. Possibly they don’t hear it. I sure do. 1/16 note is very noticeable. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Cactus Music