Studio One is about to get the Shaft

[InstrEd]

1 minute ago, bdickens said:

I remember exactly what it was like. I remember thinking "this is going to take a lot of hard work."

Honestly I still do after all these decades

[abacab]

38 minutes ago, InstrEd said:

Honestly I still do after all these decades

I'm still learning after 20+ years of hacking this DAW stuff... ?

[Grem]

5 hours ago, bdickens said:

remember thinking "this is going to take a lot of hard work."

Exactly

5 hours ago, abacab said:

I'm still learning after 20+ years of hacking this DAW stuff... ?

Yep

[antler]

I admit - I too find it hard work.

That said, 20 years ago I probably would have just pushed a fader up if a snare wasn't cutting through the mix, and then wondered why everything just felt off and the main meter was clipping (and whether that mattered).

Now, I know I might need to apply some PC: find an FET compressor, pull the attack time down, maximize the compression ratio, and then gently balance the compressed sound with the original to get both the transient and the body. Then pull out an EQ, boost a little at 7k for snap, do a little complementary 7k cut on other channels. Then maybe run the whole drum bus through a mild compression so it doesn't overly stick out in the mix. Possibly add a transient shaper. If you told that to a complete newcomer they'd likely stare blankly if you were lucky, and just flat out run away if not.

[Bapu]

I saw Issac Hayes perform at the Scientology Celebrity Center back in the 90s. No, I'm not now or ever was a member.

[Grem]

3 hours ago, antler said:

20 years ago I probably would have just pushed a fader up if a snare wasn't cutting through the mix, and then wondered why everything just felt off and the main meter was clipping (and whether that mattered).

Didn't realize it has been over 20 yrs! Yep, back then I didn't know an EQ was as powerful as it is.

 

33 minutes ago, Bapu said:

No, I'm not now or ever was a member.

Hairclub for men?

Oh.. oh .. the other thing. Sorry! : )

[kitekrazy1]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:01 PM, smallstonefan said:

Sometimes the people in charge have data that shows truths the rest of us don’t see. 
 

Just say’n

Then you realize that data can say anything that their truth was wrong over reality.  Much easier to see then.

[smallstonefan]

1 hour ago, kitekrazy said:

Then you realize that data can say anything that their truth was wrong over reality.  Much easier to see then.

I'm not sure what you're saying here?

I can tell you I've used data in business to make decisions that were absolutely counter to what my gut told me. The numbers are the numbers...

As the saying goes "figures don't lie, but liars figure."

[PavlovsCat]

9 hours ago, antler said:

I admit - I too find it hard work.

That said, 20 years ago I probably would have just pushed a fader up if a snare wasn't cutting through the mix, and then wondered why everything just felt off and the main meter was clipping (and whether that mattered).

Now, I know I might need to apply some PC: find an FET compressor, pull the attack time down, maximize the compression ratio, and then gently balance the compressed sound with the original to get both the transient and the body. Then pull out an EQ, boost a little at 7k for snap, do a little complementary 7k cut on other channels. Then maybe run the whole drum bus through a mild compression so it doesn't overly stick out in the mix. Possibly add a transient shaper. If you told that to a complete newcomer they'd likely stare blankly if you were lucky, and just flat out run away if not.

I've been using Cakewalk since the earliest version and I still don't understand EQ like you. I mostly just record and adjust volume like you described. Sad, but true.  To the CEOs point,  to truly master this area would likely take a formal education. While it sounded like typical exaggeration business people make, there actually is substance in what he said. A lot of older generation users have a hard time understanding how a new user thinks and having spent my career focused on using data to understand how people do things and how they think, the irony here is that people are ripping on the CEO when anyone experienced in the tech industry software or hardware management can tell you that what he said are very basic truths about complex software and hardware. I could give tons of examples first hand and second hand.  But I don't think the critics are going to listen. Their real takeaway should be that a VP has since stated that the CEO was not talking about removing features or functionality from the flagship product but addressing making the entry level product easier to use. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[abacab]

26 minutes ago, smallstonefan said:

As the saying goes "figures don't lie, but liars figure."

But then there is also this perspective: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51291.How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

[Byron Dickens]

1 hour ago, smallstonefan said:

I can tell you I've used data in business to make decisions that were absolutely counter to what my gut told me. The numbers are the numbers...

And what people who worship numbers don't understand is that they don't always tell the whole story. Especially if you aren't looking at the right ones....

[antler]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

I've been using Cakewalk since the earliest version and I still don't understand EQ like you. I mostly just record and adjust volume like you described. Sad, but true.  To the CEOs point,  to truly master this area would likely take a formal education. While it sounded like typical exaggeration business people make, there actually is substance in what he said. A lot of older generation users have a hard time understanding how a new user thinks and having spent my career focused on using data to understand how people do things and how they think, the irony here is that people are ripping on the CEO when anyone experienced in the tech industry software or hardware management can tell you that what he said are very basic truths about complex software and hardware. I could give tons of examples first hand and second hand.  But I don't think the critics are going to listen. Their real takeaway should be that a VP has since stated that the CEO was not talking about removing features or functionality from the flagship product but addressing making the entry level product easier to use. 

Each instrument has a certain range of key frequencies that are important to it when trying to distinguish it in a mix. The aim is to try to get the key ranges of all of your instruments audible; the other bits can (to some degree) be cut without affecting the overall sound - this is useful when making room to let other instruments be heard.

Think of it like a large-group photo: you generally try to arrange it so the taller people are stood at the back, and the others are in the front, maybe crouching or lying down to allow everyone's face to be visible. It doesn't matter so much that you can't see someone's legs if there's e.g. someone crouching in front of them; the important thing is that everyone's face can be seen. It'd be a slightly weird photo if peoples' faces couldn't be seen but you could see the rest of their bodies. It's the same concept with a mix - it wouldn't be ideal if all you could hear was e.g. the bass range of each instrument.

There are quite a few websites with mixing guides than show the typical frequencies to cut/boost when mixing a song: I still occasionally refer to some notes I made on frequency ranges when I was learning to mix.

I'm always keen to learn outside of my field/see things from different perspectives. If you have any insights on how to interpret marketing-speak/other examples you'd like to share, I'm up for listening if you're willing to share.

[PavlovsCat]

4 hours ago, antler said:

Each instrument has a certain range of key frequencies that are important to it when trying to distinguish it in a mix. The aim is to try to get the key ranges of all of your instruments audible; the other bits can (to some degree) be cut without affecting the overall sound - this is useful when making room to let other instruments be heard.

Think of it like a large-group photo: you generally try to arrange it so the taller people are stood at the back, and the others are in the front, maybe crouching or lying down to allow everyone's face to be visible. It doesn't matter so much that you can't see someone's legs if there's e.g. someone crouching in front of them; the important thing is that everyone's face can be seen. It'd be a slightly weird photo if peoples' faces couldn't be seen but you could see the rest of their bodies. It's the same concept with a mix - it wouldn't be ideal if all you could hear was e.g. the bass range of each instrument.

There are quite a few websites with mixing guides than show the typical frequencies to cut/boost when mixing a song: I still occasionally refer to some notes I made on frequencyI ranges when I was learning to mix.

I'm always keen to learn outside of my field/see things from different perspectives. If you have any insights on how to interpret marketing-speak/other examples you'd like to share, I'm up for listening if you're willing to share.

Thanks. I do know the very basics of EQ, but not really how to functionally execute EQing on my mixing. 

As far as strategy insights (my background is a digital marketing director and Fortune 500 business strategist with a specialty in technology; I've advised probably two dozen music software companies over the years; done a lot of writing and public speaking). The shortest way to put it is that you use data as a vital input in decision making. The data will include hard numbers such as sales data,  product  usage,  support data and also research study  data -- and their perception of survey data is what I suspect that is what some of the folks here are thinking about and ripping on. So in this case, the CEO has likely seen data on sales on adoption and usage of the DAW category. His comments are focused on growth, which,  of course,  a lot of this forum users, demographically  are older, more experienced users with more disposable income than say, most of the  Gen  Z segment they're targeting. The largely Boomer demographic operates very differently in terms of tech and just about everything else when it comes to DAW software. Of course,  a 50+ year old DAW user is going to have very different wants and needs. That user likely prefers hardware metaphors in the DAW design that mean nothing to Gen Zers. Like a lot of people here, years ago, I was a semi professional musician and did some recording studio work and had lots of recording and effects hardware. Most of the folks PreSonus needs to win over have no experience with any of that stuff. Their entry point is often software like GarageBand (my kids used that at their elementary school). That is their understanding of recording gear, whereas people here often had gear like ADAT, I used my older brother's multitrack reel-to-reel recorder and bought a Fostex 4 track cassette recorder as my entry way.  

So, the big challenge is getting those folks in the pipeline.  It's not a threat to us experienced DAW users. In fact,  if PreSonus doesn't succeed on winning over these entry level users, they're a lot more likely to bail on DAW software. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Peter Woods

[abacab]

14 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

So, the big challenge is getting those folks in the pipeline.  It's not a threat to us experienced DAW users. In fact,  if PreSonus doesn't succeed on winning over these entry level users, they're a lot more likely to bail on DAW software. 

That could be the bottom line.

[abacab]

19 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

Most of the folks PreSonus needs to win over have no experience with any of that stuff. Their entry point is often software like GarageBand (my kids used that at their elementary school). That is their understanding of recording gear, whereas people here often had gear like ADAT, a used my older brother's multitrack reel-to-reel recorder and bought a Fostex 4 track cassette recorder.  

I have a friend that's a singer-songwriter guitarist, and is from the Gen-X era. I tried to introduce him to computers and DAWs, but he's just not a computer person, and I respect that. He found his way with a standalone digital hard disk recorder, and was even able to record and mix a CD using that. Respect!

So I am sure that there is room for a software medium for artists to lay down and mix quality tracks, that do not require an entire recording studio worth of technology, or the DAW equivalent of such.

[PavlovsCat]

5 minutes ago, abacab said:

That could be the bottom line.

Yep. The good news is that the DAW market is healthy and growing. Here's a summary of a study, if anyone is interested. Of course,  PreSonus's CEO's remarks that inspired this thread were focused on new, entry level users, and this research is much more broad, but the summary might be of interest to anyone following this stuff. 

https://www.marketsandmarkets.com/Market-Reports/digital-audio-workstation-market-266138785.html

[mibby]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:06 AM, Technostica said:

He wants Garageband as well as Logic, not instead of.

I stopped reading this thread a while ago, but every time I see it I keep thinking of this comment: GarageBand and iRig on an iPad was my re-entry into recording about 8 years ago. It doesn't get much simpler than that. (Unless you want to export the tracks!)  I think  Presonus is set up very well to do something like that, only better IMHO.

[Tim Smith]

If I bought an entry level product and knew there were other capabilities in a higher level product I could take advantage of if I moved up, I would be moving up. 

Others don't seem to think that way. They are content to lay sound down, use basic plugins and DAW software.

Some might eventually 'work into' a more feature rich program as they see the need for it. I have always seen a potential need and acted based on that, and yes a lot of it is probably overkill for me.

After a lot of failed experiments I don't think touch pad anything is going to be the answer, so i pads, and i phones or android equivalents are just little gizmos that make working in a DAW more difficult most of the time. As an ADDITION they seem ok for some things, but not as a program centric thing. I tried a bunch of that stuff early on and didn't connect with it. Sure if I were living in a mini house and didn't have a computer and the ONLY thing I had was a smart phone I guess I would have no choice. Other than that though, there's no beating workflow properly set up on a desktop DAW. 

No matter what you use, EQ , compression and mixing chops will never change. At some point you might be given a menu based on genre. "Ballpark" smart plugins. This is why I think music is stooping to even lower levels in quality.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Tim Smith

[TW5011]

56 minutes ago, Tim Smith said:

there's no beating workflow properly set up on a desktop DAW.

I agree with that, at least from my perspective.  However, I've been doing this for 20+ years and have invested the time and money to have a nice setup and learn what I'm doing.  I have friends who play an instrument who don't want to bother with anything complicated or spend much money, but like recording themselves and playing along with backing tracks.  They don't care about releasing pro-quality songs or learning to mix.  They just want to add some enjoyment to their playing, and they want to share it with their friends directly*.  So for that target audience, a really simple easy-to-use product is a great idea.  That can build the brand and bring in more revenue.  Some users will upgrade, some won't.  So as long as PreSonus keeps Studio One Pro going in the current direction and keeps this separate, it's a great idea.

* Sharing music with friends is part of what music is all about, right?  It's more "social" than just uploading it to SoundCloud with no promotion.  So if they can make that easy to do, that would be a big plus.

[Bapu]

20 hours ago, Peter Woods said:

So, the big challenge is getting those folks in the pipeline.  It's not a threat to us experienced DAW users. In fact,  if PreSonus doesn't succeed on winning over these entry level users, they're a lot more likely to bail on DAW software. 

 

20 hours ago, abacab said:

That could be the bottom line.

And so we may have come full circle to the title of the OP? 

 

 

I'll get me coat.