UPDATED!!! Kashmir - Led Zeppelin - MY COVER Greatly Improved from last version

[PavlovsCat]

Of course, when I wrote "greatly improved from last version." I meant greatly improved from my last version, not Zeppelin's! I recorded and mixed the earlier shared track a few months ago, and this is my update to that, with some swapped out instrumental parts and different parts brought up in the mix. This is a work in progress, but I think this is substantially better than my last version. Some production notes: 

(1) I replaced the drums that start the song from the previous version. This beat is much more straight ahead and groove oriented than what I used in the previous version. 
(2) There's a lot going on in this mix, with a total of 44 tracks, and I clearly need to figure out how to do a better job of mixing it. 
(3) One of the key premises of my version is -- what if the beat went with the 6/4 timing of the other instruments, instead of 4/4? I do that in the two later verses after the piano section. 
(4) I used Melodyne on my vocal to fix some notes in my first verse (I did better as the song went along), but I definitely haven't figured out the art of using that well yet. I will keep practicing and trying to do a better job with the vocal. 
(5) This whole thing started out with my playing piano and singing, doing a bunch of improv -- hence why it's a bit adventurous and not refined, especially, of all things, the drums (of all things, because I used to be a semi-professional drummer and that's the sloppiest part of this, I just did three takes with three different drum kits and didn't really spend much time worrying about if they lined up perfectly). 

I very much am interested in production advice. I realize I'm not a good singer -- I never was -- so I'm very limited in that area. But where I can really use insights are, what are some specific things I can do to improve the mix -- what do you think works and what do you think doesn't work? 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[Larry T.]

11 hours ago, PavlovsCat said:

I very much am interested in production advice. I realize I'm not a good singer -- I never was -- so I'm very limited in that area. But where I can really use insights are, what are some specific things I can do to improve the mix -- what do you think works and what do you think doesn't work? 

i'll chime in first, but, i've only been doing this for about six months so i'll keep it short and concise....

 #1 thing in a mix is to trust your ears.

 #2 is balance/volume of all instruments/vox, this is where magic can suddenly appear when it wasn't before

#3 for me is the Pro Channel EQ module. finding the right settings can take awhile or sometimes i just go with experience....the Gloss button can do amazing things for vocals

as for what works in your mix, imho, the crunchy guitars, the slow piano/vox breakdown around the 5:00 mark, the overall arrangement is quite good as it adds good things that the original doesn't have.

what i personally am not a fan of is the 6/4 experiment towards the end although if played with a different arrangement with all instruments on the same page it might work....and, y'know, in music the possibilities are sometimes almost endless

cheers!!!! ????

[PavlovsCat]

 @Larry T. Funny enough, I thought the 6/4 parts near the end would be the parts people liked best and I was contemplating doing the song over with all of the sections with that progression played like that! I'm curious what you didn't like about it? Was it the drum beat, the additional guitar riff I did (not in the original song)-- which I stole from a song I wrote  back in the 90s -- a combination of that...?

The whole thing was really just me adding tracks to the original tracks of me playing piano and singing like you hear in the section without drums the first time I ever tried playing and singingthe song (I had just worked out the parts). I saw this as me trying things out to see what worked and didn't. So it's interesting to me that the part I thought worked best might not be other people's cup of tea. But I shared the earlier version with my friends before on Facebook and no one commented, so I took it to mean it really didn't grab anyone (as when my friends like something,  they comment) . 

Again, thanks much for taking the time to listen and share your thoughts. It's appreciated. 

[Larry T.]

41 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

 @Larry T. Funny enough, I thought the 6/4 parts near the end would be the parts people liked best and I was contemplating doing the song over with all of the sections with that progression played like that! I'm curious what you didn't like about it? Was it the drum beat, the additional guitar riff I did (not in the original song)-- which I stole from a song I wrote  back in the 90s -- a combination of that...?

 

my brain just couldn't process/accept that part of Kashmir in 6/4, lol!!....i did like the dual bass/guitar riff you inserted in that section, though....it added a dimension that wasn't there before 

[Kevin Walsh]

I really like your take on this classic piece. The instrument choices very cool and sound great and the arrangement is pretty great.  Loved the bridge arrangement and the piano/vocal verse at 4:40-ish.

The rest of my post is just my opinion. Keep in mind that I'm probably completely wrong about everything. 

The one thing that jumps out at me is where the vocal sits in the mix. It doesn't blend with the instruments very well in places. Part of the problem is volume; it's way up front (at the beginning) and it doesn't sound like it's in the same room with the rest of the instruments.  A little judicious reverb or delay applied to the vocals may help some too.

Another thing is how the vocal is eq'd. Some of the instruments are taking up the same space that the vocals are in which makes them sound unclear (and which is probably why the vocal levels are cranked a bit.) 

Consider where Plant's vocals sit in the original mix and why they blend so well with the other instruments. It's because they have their own space. 

You can try to fix this by using pro channel eq and reducing the volume of various frequencies in vocal part that are interfering with other tracks to see if you can't make it sit better.  Use a high pass filter to get rid of lows that you can't hear but that take up energy in the mix.  After that, try adding individual EQ nodes with varying Q widths and sliding them around till things sound better. One or two may be all you need. 

I've found that if this kind of thing doesn't help it's because I'm singing at the wrong range for my voice and I end up transposing things up a few steps (or down if I need to go higher than my natural range.)

This is a really nice piece of work overall. You have a great ear. Don't give up on your vocals! Natural talent helps, but hard work and a willingness to experiment, coupled with an unwillingness to give up will always work for you.

It's all part of the fun, right?

[PavlovsCat]

11 minutes ago, Larry T. said:

my brain just couldn't process/accept that part of Kashmir in 6/4, lol!!....i did like the dual bass/guitar riff you inserted in that section, though....it added a dimension that wasn't there before 

Believe me, the first rock record album I bought was Zeppelin III. There was a part of me that said, "How dare you try to change Bonham's part!!!" Dead serious. I really do appreciate your constructive criticism.  It's very helpful. Thanks again. 

[PavlovsCat]

49 minutes ago, Kevin Walsh said:

I really like your take on this classic piece. The instrument choices very cool and sound great and the arrangement is pretty great.  Loved the bridge arrangement and the piano/vocal verse at 4:40-ish.

The rest of my post is just my opinion. Keep in mind that I'm probably completely wrong about everything. 

The one thing that jumps out at me is where the vocal sits in the mix. It doesn't blend with the instruments very well in places. Part of the problem is volume; it's way up front (at the beginning) and it doesn't sound like it's in the same room with the rest of the instruments.  A little judicious reverb or delay applied to the vocals may help some too.

Another thing is how the vocal is eq'd. Some of the instruments are taking up the same space that the vocals are in which makes them sound unclear (and which is probably why the vocal levels are cranked a bit.) 

Consider where Plant's vocals sit in the original mix and why they blend so well with the other instruments. It's because they have their own space. 

You can try to fix this by using pro channel eq and reducing the volume of various frequencies in vocal part that are interfering with other tracks to see if you can't make it sit better.  Use a high pass filter to get rid of lows that you can't hear but that take up energy in the mix.  After that, try adding individual EQ nodes with varying Q widths and sliding them around till things sound better. One or two may be all you need. 

I've found that if this kind of thing doesn't help it's because I'm singing at the wrong range for my voice and I end up transposing things up a few steps (or down if I need to go higher than my natural range.)

This is a really nice piece of work overall. You have a great ear. Don't give up on your vocals! Natural talent helps, but hard work and a willingness to experiment, coupled with an unwillingness to give up will always work for you.

It's all part of the fun, right?

Thanks for the insights.  I really don't know what I'm doing with mixing -- and I realize it shows, but I'm going to try to implement your advice. All I  did on the vocal was slap on a couple of effect chain presets from Nectar and ezMix. But I realize that you're right I just don't know how to deal with fixing the issues,  but I'm going to try. 

Okay, I shared that I stopped playing professionally due to tendonitis (in both wrists) that result in pain after playing drums for even a couple minutes. But I didn't share that I was born with a birth defect in my inner ears that causes a significant hearing loss and the inability to hear some frequencies,  so even as I'm starting to learn about mixing,  I'm one of the worst possible people to do a mix. It goes against nature that I  can play anymore! I actually was just playing Kashmir for the first time on the original piano track and it was maybe the first month since I started playing again and, as you can hear, my timing on the piano section was awful as certain frequencies overlapped and I lost track of the click, which you can hear bleeding into the mic (I need it to be super loud to hear it, so it's basically always bleeding into the mic on my vocal tracks).  But I'm still glad I can even play anymore. And I will slowly get better at playing and learn how to EQ, use effects and mix. Back in the day, all I cared about musically,  was playing, arranging music and songwriting, so I never really learned about music production.  

My mother went to college for classical piano and organ performance and taught piano, organ and guitar and worked professionally as a musician. She encouraged me to be a professional musician, but would always add, "It's a shame you have such a horrible voice." But I'm confident if she could hear this, she would be horrified at my piano playing too and tell me that I need to practice and record this again when I can get it right! But hey, I'm more comfortable sharing my flawed performances than I was a year ago, so while I need to improve my playing, I'm at least able to share my stuff without being too concerned about my flawed playing. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[Kevin Walsh]

You would be surprised how many forum members have hearing loss. I have acute hearing loss in both ears from my time in the military. You're doing fine. It's just a matter of not quitting.

[PavlovsCat]

Just now, Kevin Walsh said:

You would be surprised how many forum members have hearing loss. I have acute hearing loss in both ears from my time in the military. You're doing fine. It's just a matter of not quitting.

Exactly, Kevin! I have really bad tinnitus too, but it really doesn't bother me during the loud parts, just the quiet parts. My two teenage kids hear my voice and tell me, "Stick to the drums, dad!" But they won't keep me down!!! Hahaha. I sincerely appreciate the encouragement and want to do the same right back to you.  I have been begging my daughter to sing on this stuff as she has a really good voice and sings with her school choir, but she keeps declining. Hopefully, someday soon, and the quality of my music will improve by a million times. Although it may mean I'm doing a lot of Billie Ellish songs! Which is fine, but as people can see, I'm a rocker -- and love Zeppelin, The Beatles, Foo Fighters, Radiohead, etc.