Waves CR8 Sampler

[PavlovsCat]

2 hours ago, dubdisciple said:

You seem to like throwing out inflammatory statements and inaccurate ones at that and then acting like a victim. I didn't call you a name. I said you lied which is not an attack. It is an irrefutable fact. I have hostility or anger towards you. I ignored your response because it seemed clear that you wanted to argue for the sake of arguing.  I simply do not like someone saying something about me that is not true. I corrected the lie you told.  I don't mind being quoted or even if you chose to address my actual words but claiming I quoted or misquoted you is what it is. Your opinion is just that but you should expect people to not appreciate you changing their words to continue your back and forth over nothing.  

No one's claiming to be a victim.

On page one, after my post you clearly referenced/responded to my post. Your page  one post in its entirety: 

"WUP is annoying but subscription model comparison is not quite right.  Waves plugins work fine for years without paying WUP. I used RBass for 5 years without paying. Most subscription models stop working when you stop paying.  "

That is what I referred to when I  stated that you misstated/misunderstood what I  wrote. I didn't write that as an insult, which I  think is how, unfortunately,  you interpreted it. The point of my original remark was not that Waves has a subscription model,  but that their WUP serves much of the same purpose in generating recurring revenue but it isn't clear upfront like a subscription model. Anyhow, that's all. I definitely won't be responding to any of your posts beyond this thread going for forward. 

Peace. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[PavlovsCat]

On 2/16/2022 at 11:01 AM, dubdisciple said:

WUP is annoying but subscription model comparison is not quite right.  Waves plugins work fine for years without paying WUP. I used RBass for 5 years without paying. Most subscription models stop working when you stop paying.  

Your above posts came four posts after me and no one else brought up the subscription model in the thread but me. Here's my original post, that I later edited for clarity as I realized my remark was misunderstood: 

"On a serious note, WUP is just another, more deceptive way to push what is pretty close to a subscription model-- and for the second license is q subscription (you have to purchase an annual license and the second installation will no longer work if you do not keep renewing WUP), which is not clearly specified to a prospective customer prior to a purchase. 

I'm a marketing pro that has consulted to probably two dozen sample and plugin developers and written extensively on marketing strategy,  but I only learned about WUP after I purchased a bunch of Waves plugins. It didn't leave a good taste in my mouth and since learning,  I generally buy from other developers for the most part. One thing is very clear, Waves has the largest army of influencers shilling for them of any dev I can think of. "

End of topic. Let's move on. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[dubdisciple]

3 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

No one's claiming to be a victim. I'll make this my last post responding to you. 

On page one, after my post you clearly referenced my post. Your post in its entirety: 

"WUP is annoying but subscription model comparison is not quite right.  Waves plugins work fine for years without paying WUP. I used RBass for 5 years without paying. Most subscription models stop working when you stop paying.  "

That is what I referred to when I  stated that you misstated/misunderstood what I  wrote. I didn't write that as an insult, which I  think is how, unfortunately,  you interpreted it. The point of my original remark was not that Waves has a subscription model,  but that their WUP serves much of the same purpose in generating recurring revenue but it isn't clear upfront like a subscription model. Anyhow, that's all.  Peace. 

Now it has went from "misquoted" to "misunderstood". Make up your mind which passive aggressive condescension you wish to use. I understood you just fine and again, your narcissism is showing to claim anyone on here didn't understand you just because we didn't agree. I got your point exactly . Get past your inflated sense of self. I will drop this because each response is getting more insulting. Peace

[PavlovsCat]

7 minutes ago, dubdisciple said:

Now it has went from "misquoted" to "misunderstood". Make up your mind which passive aggressive condescension you wish to use. I understood you just fine and again, your narcissism is showing to claim anyone on here didn't understand you just because we didn't agree. I got your point exactly . Get past your inflated sense of self. I will drop this because each response is getting more insulting. Peace

First you called me a "liar" and claimed that you weren't referring to my post with your post that very clearly referenced my post. I am the authoritative source on what I wrote and intended and I  was comparing WUP to a subscription model,  not saying it was one. You restated what I  wrote as me stating that WUP is a subscription model and I  was clarifying that was not what I meant. 

Now you're making even more attacks and projecting that I'm insulting you and arrogant. You completely violated forum policy with personal attacks. Please do not comment on my posts going forward. I will not respond to you  and your attacks any more. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[dubdisciple]

6 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

First you called me a "liar" and claimed that you weren't referring to my post with your post that very clearly referenced my post. I am the authoritative source on what I wrote and intended and I  was comparing WUP to a subscription model,  not saying it was one. You restated what I  wrote as me stating that WUP is a subscription model and I  was clarifying that was not what I meant. 

Now you're making even more attacks and projecting that I'm insulting you and arrogant. You completely violated forum policy with personal attacks. Please do not comment on my posts going forward. I will not respond to you  and your attacks any more. 

Are you serious. I didn't say I didn't refer to your post. I said I didn't quote or misquote you. Not a difficult distonction. Bye

[dubdisciple]

9 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

First you called me a "liar" and claimed that you weren't referring to my post with your post that very clearly referenced my post. I am the authoritative source on what I wrote and intended and I  was comparing WUP to a subscription model,  not saying it was one. You restated what I  wrote as me stating that WUP is a subscription model and I  was clarifying that was not what I meant. 

Now you're making even more attacks and projecting that I'm insulting you and arrogant. You completely violated forum policy with personal attacks. Please do not comment on my posts going forward. I will not respond to you  and your attacks any more. 

Are you serious. I didn't say I didn't refer to your post. I said I didn't quote or misquote you. Not a difficult distinction.  The moment I figure how block works on this forum it is done.Bye

[PavlovsCat]

3 hours ago, dubdisciple said:

Are you serious. I didn't say I didn't refer to your post. I said I didn't quote or misquote you. Not a difficult distonction. Bye

You wrote the exact term I just posted.  Technically,  that is literally able to be called a quote whether or not you use quotation marks. That is in an indisputable fact.  

Your comment solely referred to my comment referencing the term "subscription model," not anything else in the thread.  No other post in the thread even had anything remotely similar in it to mine, so you clearly weren't referencing someone else. Look at page one or two prior to your comment clearly referring to my comment.  I've cut and pasted my original comment and your response to it below so you can clearly see.  After I saw that a few people were really focusing on the minutia of the subscription model -- which wasn't my point -- I edited my post's first sentence with, I believe, two words to clarify, as I think my writing was a bit clumsy (I wrote it on my phone pretty quickly): 

"On a serious note, WUP is just another, more deceptive way to push what is pretty close to a subscription model-- and for the second license is q subscription (you have to purchase an annual license and the second installation will no longer work if you do not keep renewing WUP), which is not clearly specified to a prospective customer prior to a purchase. 

I'm a marketing pro that has consulted to probably two dozen sample and plugin developers and written extensively on marketing strategy,  but I only learned about WUP after I purchased a bunch of Waves plugins. It didn't leave a good taste in my mouth and since learning,  I generally buy from other developers for the most part. One thing is very clear, Waves has the largest army of influencers shilling for them of any dev I can think of. "

THIS IS YOUR COMMENT THAT FOLLOWS MY COMMENT THAT QUOTES WHAT I WROTE ("SUBSCRIPTION MODEL')  -- AT THAT POINT NO ONE ELSE HAD BROUGHT UP THE TERM "SUBSCRIPTION MODEL" OR MADE EVEN A HINT OF A REFERENCE TO IT: 

"WUP is annoying but subscription model comparison is not quite right.  Waves plugins work fine for years without paying WUP. I used RBass for 5 years without paying. Most subscription models stop working when you stop paying. " 

FTR, I wasn't offended by your above comment in any way. I just wanted to clarify my point -- which I realized that was made in a pretty clumsy manner (I'm referring to my comment not being as clear as it could have been, which I later tried to revise after you and someone else really focused on the subscription model comparison I made).  To your point, misquote wasn't the precise term., I meant that you quoted me and --I'm quite certain --and  meant that you quoted me but really didn't reflect the point I was making, which was not that WUP was identical to a subscription model, but that it had a lot in common with a subscription model. which I find is an ethically questionable way to introduce their WUP, which has some major aspects that share some elements with the subscription model -- which is the recurring revenue, that after a one year period, to get support and updates you need to pay -- and especially when it comes to the installation on a second computer, which works identically to a subscription model. My point wasn't to argue that WUP is identical to a subscription model and go down a rabbit hole with anyone, which is what ended up happening.  And, I realize that there's a lot of heated debate over the subscription model itself, which wasn't my issue with Waves practices either. My issue is over the lack of clear disclosure upfront -- before a prospect makes a purchase -- of how Waves software works, because it isn't the norm in the music software world and I think that ethically necessities that the seller disclose that upfront, otherwise, the avg consumer is likely to assume that their software will follow industry norms. Just look at the various message board comments from Waves customers discussing WUP. My issue as someone who has personally brought a bunch of Waves plugins after understanding WUP isn't the issue, in this discussion. Now that I understand that a Waves plugin only comes with a license for one computer for one year of updates and s support and that an additional computer license must be purchased and comes with WUP, and only allows you to use that software for one year, when I make a decision to purchase another Waves plugin, I fully understand the deal. 

So I will concede that my referring to you misrepresenting my point as a misquote was imprecise language on my part, and that clearly angered you. I am sorry, I didn't intend to anger you or upset you in any way. However, it still doesn't justify your personal attacks, name calling and slanderous statements. We can disagree, but we must always remain civil, and your behavior clearly crossed lines into incredibly uncivil territory. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[PavlovsCat]

Anyhow,  let's move on.  I think I'm done discussing WUP at this forum for a while. I'll leave that topic to Fleer. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[Zo]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

From now on I know,  controversial topics include politics,  religion, vaccines, masks...and WUP.  

The political correcteness is exactly why we are in this very situation , where people don't even know how to fight ,(when they actually find out it has to be done) , most don't even reconise the emergency .... so they never been confronted thks to this SELF censure that everybody is applying around ... it's funny you talked about cause i was about to propose a very "POLITICAL & SPIRITUAL + RELIGION " place in all forums around the globe !!!  because it's like the real world right ?

[PavlovsCat]

1 hour ago, Zo said:

The political correcteness is exactly why we are in this very situation , where people don't even know how to fight ,(when they actually find out it has to be done) , most don't even reconise the emergency .... so they never been confronted thks to this SELF censure that everybody is applying around ... it's funny you talked about cause i was about to propose a very "POLITICAL & SPIRITUAL + RELIGION " place in all forums around the globe !!!  because it's like the real world right ?

That's a lot to digest! 

I just thought we would have an intelligent discussion on WUP. I think people were really focused on the small details of how a subscription plan works and when I tried to explain the analogy I made, the point of which is that WUP has a lot in common with a subscription model, not the small details of a subscription model and I never intended to go down a rabbit hole about the small details, which wasn't the point. The point was the lack of disclosure by Waves about how their WUP works prior to the sale. But the discussion went down a rabbit hole of small details instead of the point of my post that a few people wanted to argue with me about that quickly turned into a pile on. But man everyone, we can disagree without demeaning others, without resorting to hostility. I love this community because  of how kind people are. Can we get back to that? Anyone can disagree with me -- I have teenage kids and they love to disagree with me -- that's fine; I raised them to be critical thinkers and not blindly accept what others say (hahaha, not fully realizing what would happen over the years, what the heck do I know?). But if I write something and someone responds and then I respond to clarify my own point, it shouldn't devolve into a series of personal attacks and insults. If I'm taking the time to respond to you, I obviously respect you enough to give you a thoughtful reply. I would hope others will do the same. We can all disagree and be passionate about our points without it devolving into hostility. Well, at least I hope we can going forward.  

Edited February 18, 2022 by PavlovsCat

[Zo]

4 minutes ago, PavlovsCat said:

That's a lot to digest! 

I just thought we would have an intelligent discussion on WUP. I think people were really focused on the small details of how a subscription plan works and when I tried to explain the analogy, it clearly wasn't well received. But man everyone, we can disagree without demeaning others, without resorting to hostility. I love this community because  of how kind people are. Can we get back to that? Anyone can disagree with me -- I have teenage kids and they love to disagree with me -- that's fine; I raised them to be critical thinkers and not blindly accept what others say (hahaha, not fully realizing what would happen over the years!). But if I write something and someone responds and then I respond to clarify my own point, it shouldn't devolve into a series of personal attacks and insults. If I'm taking the time to respond to you, I obviously respect you enough to give you a thoughtful reply. I would hope others will do the same. 

lol didn't fallowing the conversation of the WUP lol i was just jumping on your comment to make a point , nothing against you homie .... and i really do think that talking about everything is the best way for people to see how diffrence makes us grow and how similire in the end we are  !!

[PavlovsCat]

24 minutes ago, Zo said:

lol didn't fallowing the conversation of the WUP lol i was just jumping on your comment to make a point , nothing against you homie .... and i really do think that talking about everything is the best way for people to see how diffrence makes us grow and how similire in the end we are  !!

Well, thanks for bringing some positivity to the thread, Zo. It needed it! Have a good one.  Peace, 

[pseudopop]

First rule of debate: Define terms.

Subscription: an arrangement for providing, receiving, or making use of something of a continuing or periodic nature especially on a prepayment plan: such as  a purchase by prepayment for a certain number of regular deliveries of something (such as issues of a periodical) or for a certain period of access to or use of something (such as an online service). [source: Merriam-Webster]

WUP: Waves Update Plan. This gives you updates for your covered products, 2nd licenses for covered plugins and bundles, plus all the benefits listed below. The products you own remain yours forever, even after your plan expires. To enjoy updates and benefits, renew your plan at any time. [source: Waves]

WUP is not Waves Plugin Access Plan. It has, in fact, nothing to do with your eligibility to use Waves plugins, save for the 2nd license. So people who say that WUP is not a subscription because they can use their plugins even if the don't pay for WUP are using a wrong argument.

Paying for WUP gives you access to the 2nd license, customer support, software updates and some other benefits for a specific time period. If you don't pay for WUP you lose access to those benefits. To me, that sounds like a subscription, just not a plugin subscription.

Second rule of debate: No personal attacks.

In a civilized debate you should-- oh, right. This is an internet forum. Never mind then. Carry on.

[Wookiee]

Sorry @Larry Shelby but this now has enough to help peeps but it is going the way of a four page thread.

Locking.

Please remember this is a peer to peer group so we should remain friendly at all times thank you.