Sidechain PLUS upsampling don't work (anymore?)

[Prog Nut]

I have tried Cakewalk LP MB and PC4K, Brainworks Focusrite SC, Melda MDynamicEQ among many diverse plugins. Every plugin with sidechain possibility without problem handle the "2x" enable plug-in upsampling button globally IF and only IF "Upsample On Playback" is UN-checked (Off) on the plugin. Normally everything is upsampled all the time without fuss, but the moment I enable upsampling WITH sidechain the sound is garbeled and sped down. Cakewalk might crash, and if it do not it anyway become unworkable.

Cakewalk by Bandlab have become an incredible reliable software, and is a joy to use! However, the described inability to handle upsampling when sidechaining is the greatest obstacle presently (for me). I don't know when this behaviour began, or if this even is an old bug. It may have surfaced after some of the recent updates (2021.9 or 2021.11), but I am unsure!?

Anyone else who have to disable upsampling when sidechaining?

I can reproduce this easy. Start a new project, make an audio or a midi track (with music...). Insert an audio FX plugin with sidechain possibilities. Insert a send from another track to the plugin. Enable "2x" plus have all plugins to upsample on playback. Press play and the music sputters and crawls. 100% repeatable...
If I instead render an exported sound file, the exact same thing happen and the rendered file is garbeled and unusable.
My computer is fairly modern. 24 core Ryzen, 32 GB memory. Sound card is a Quad-Capture, and I usually work at 48 kHz 24 bit.

Am I the only one with this bug. I have, of course, tried juggling with several preferencies (including ASIO buffer), but to no avail... What say the Bakers?

[bitflipper]

Sorry, I was unable to reproduce it here. Is it the sidechain source or its target that is being upsampled? Or both?

My test: Zebra2 (not oversampled) driving three instances of FabFilter Pro-C2 on 3 oversampled instruments (Kontakt, Zebra2 and Trillian). I tried it just with normal playback, after freezing, and after rendering to a new audio track.

[Prog Nut]

2 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Sorry, I was unable to reproduce it here. Is it the sidechain source or its target that is being upsampled? Or both?

My test: Zebra2 (not oversampled) driving three instances of FabFilter Pro-C2 on 3 oversampled instruments (Kontakt, Zebra2 and Trillian). I tried it just with normal playback, after freezing, and after rendering to a new audio track.

Thank you for your help! ?

No, for me it's like this (Using your examples).  (The Upsampling i talk about is Cakewalks built in, ie the little icon in the upper left corner, both on instruments and on other plugins, where "Upsample on Playback" should be enabled);

Zebra 2 (upsampled) goes to master, and also sends an sidechain to FabFilter (upsampled) which uses the sidechain to modulate compression of a bass guitar on Trillian (upsampled) which also goes to master bus.

As long as the effect (Pro-C2) also uses Cakewalk upsampling, as described above, AND the 2x button is enabled, the bass from Trillian plays at half(?) the speed with sputtering and hickups.

If I disable the Upsampling only on the effect (Pro-C2), she sound revert to normal. If I instead remove the sidechain I can then without problem enable upsampling again on the Pro-C2. So, I can use upsampling on all modules, OR I can use sidechain, but then I have to disable upsampling on (only) those specific effects. Or disable upsampling globally by disable the "2x" button.

This is perhaps "snobbery", because the sound at the base frequency (44k or 48k) often is enough for the sound quality. But it still annoys me because in my eyes this is a bug which hamper my ability to use oversampling in a consistent way.

[bitflipper]

OK, I think I understand your dilemma. Normally, upsampling in an individual effect is handled internally, meaning the sample rate is doubled at its input and then halved at its output. This assures that the rest of the surrounding ecosystem never even knows that trickery was done.

Which makes sense, given that oversampling is used solely to mitigate issues that happen within the plugin. The oversampled signal should never affect anything else, nor need to. This is important, because the next processor in the signal chain is expecting audio at the project sample rate.

It's possible the sidechain output somehow breaks that contract by sending out the oversampled version. This should not be the case, though. The send should be identical to the main output, except for level. 

Whether this is a bug that warrants addressing, I'm not sure. Faced with this dilemma, my first thought would be "am I making things unnecessarily difficult for myself?". In your described scenario, which I assume is to duck the bass when the synth plays, there would really be no reason for upsampling Trillian. It's a sampler. It's not going to sound better at 2x. The synth is probably not benefiting, either, although you'd have to verify using a spectrum analyzer.

So the only potential benefit from upsampling would be within the compressor, assuming you're using attack times shorter than a single cycle of the lowest bass note being played, in which case audible distortion is likely and aliasing is at least a possibility.

What I'm saying is you're making problems for yourself by going overboard with unneeded upsampling. I certainly understand the frustration of not being able to do something you think is reasonable. But rather than getting annoyed, I say just remove that rock from your shoe and move on.

All that said, have a look at the compressor settings. A too-high threshold plus very fast attack and release times can cause chattering, a rapid opening and closing of the compressor.

[Prog Nut]

Thank you, bitflipper, for a realistic and insightful answer!

Generally speaking I am with you! ? You don't "need" to upsample everything, for the sake of... well, upsampling! However, a while ago I read up on how Cakewalk handled this and decided to try to consistently use oversampling everywhere, instead of enabling this only on some plugins. I have heard enough evidence for that it generally give a little better sound and behavour (as you describe), especially with compressors, eq's and other "frequency altering" effects. If I remember it correct, it was only a couple of year since Cakewalk got the fuss-free handling of different sampling frequencies. It was more troublesome in the past where I had to resample certain sound files to "fit" the chosen sample rate.

However, as of now every plugin is unusable if I use upsampling and sidechain in the same plugin. I agree that Trillian, or Modo Bass (wich use the most since I don't own Trillian...) don't really need upsampling. But it is not the instruments that is the pervading problem, it is precisely the compressors and the (dynamic)EQ that are keeping me from oversampling (when sidechaining).

I can enable oversampling on all my plugins (and software instruments)
OR
I can enable the sidechain to the same plugin,
but I can NOT
enable both upsampling and sidechain in the same plugin in ANY of my plugins. Never ever... (regardless of if the plugin has its "own" upsampling or not)

This have given me problem when I insert an effect (wich I let Cakewalk upsample with better sound as result). I work along, and some days/weeks later i get an idea to unmask something via a sidechain, and suddenly the sound sputters or Cakewalk throw a fit and dies. Oops...

Of course now I know that it is "only" a matter of disabling the oversampling on that particular plugin and work along, but in some cases I have to "redial" the sound because of altered behavior of the plugin at the new frequency.

From my view Cakewalk by Bandlab has a 95% transparent and unproblematic handling of the sample rates instead of 100%. I have had many years of virtually no problem with this DAW, but this time these specific 5% is hitting at least my face... ?

It would be interesting to know if anyone successfully have used sidechaining and oversampling simultaneously (in the same plugin)?

[Will.]

Also: Make sure "Upsampling on playback is turned off on individual plugins. 

Locate the tiny little "FX box" on the border window of the plugin TOP LEFT and unchecked it. You don't need to enable all 3. The x2 Upsampling in the toolbar and the one the plugin itself offers - should be enough to handle at best at 48k sample rate. 

[Prog Nut]

19 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Also: Make sure "Upsampling on playback is turned off on individual plugins. 

Locate the tiny little "FX box" on the border window of the plugin TOP LEFT and unchecked it. You don't need to enable all 3. The x2 Upsampling in the toolbar and the one the plugin itself offers - should be enough to handle at best at 48k sample rate. 

Well, that's one solution, but then we effectively give up on oversampling altogether!? Which could be fine, really! But I belive consensus is that with the able hardware of today (and when hardly all plugins are aliasing free...) it is a good habit to use oversampling consistently. And yes, I know it often could be a miniscule difference, if any at all... ?

According to:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.25.html

, disabling the "2x" button effectively disable all Cakewalk oversampling globally (with exception to certain developer's own resampling inside their plugins)
Without enabling oversampling in the "FX box" on the window border for each plugin, the "2x" button does nothing! (That is if I have understood the description, in the link above, correct...)

I am nearly there. I can use oversampling on all my plugins. The lot! This is good for Cakewalk as a professional tool! It is therefore a pity that only one case prevent a 100% usage, and that is if I send a sidechain signal to a plugin. Then I unfortunately have to disable oversampling on that very plugin. ?

It really seems that the Bakers somehow did forget to assign the correct sample rate to sidechain signals. If so, it would hopefully be a minor correction to the code to exterminate that bug, since everything else works!?

[Will.]

52 minutes ago, Prog Nut said:

According to:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.25.html

, disabling the "2x" button effectively disable all Cakewalk oversampling globally (with exception to certain developer's own resampling inside their plugins)
Without enabling oversampling in the "FX box" on the window border for each plugin, the "2x" button does nothing! (That is if I have understood the description, in the link above, correct...)
 

No it does not. 

If you enable upsampling in the FX box you're your 44khz sample rate into 88khz and by enabling teh global x2 button you're increasing the plugin with the upsampling to 96khz. 

So if you want a constant 88khz (project sample rate of 44khz) or 96Khz (48khz project sample rate) you need to disable any upsampling in the pluging windows border little box. 

That means if you're running a project on 48khz with the x2 button enabled you are working in 96khz. So if any of your plugins max out at 96Khz and the upsampling on playback/recording are selected in the window border - you are in 192khz with the specific plugin. This is when things either cuts out/disbaled on the plugin, or, your hear those speedups, robotic, alliasings. Upsampling and Oversampling are two different worlds. 

Soliloquy: Am i explaining this correctly? 

Anyone is welcome to correct me. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Will_Kaydo

[Prog Nut]

Hi Will_Kaydo!

Citing the documentation link above, it says:

"To globally bypass plug-in upsampling
To globally enable/disable plug-in upsampling for plug-ins that already have upsampling enabled, click the Enable/Bypass Plug-In Upsampling button "2x" in the Control Bar’s Mix module. Upsampling is enabled when the button is lit."

To my understanding you have to both enable the "Upsample on Playback" in the drop down menu for the particular plugin, AND enable the "2x" button. Perhaps this is as a security measure for the plugins that don't work with upsampling at all, which you then can exclude from an otherwise fully "oversampling regimen"

My problem now, and I hope others can prove me wrong or show me what I am doing wrong, is that ONLY sidechaining evoke the "mal-sampling" problem. I have tested plugins from many (many!) developers that handles every type of upsampling. Even if I use both Cakewalks own upsampling simultaneously with the plugin's internal upsampling. No problem, no hiccups, no strange sound... until... Until I direct a sidechain to the plugin. Then, and only then, I have to disable "Upsample on Playback" for that particular plugin.

However, if it works the way you (Will_Kaydo) interpret this, the better! ? But reading the documentation forward and backward I am doubtful, but I still hope I am wrong...

And if it is the sidechaining "mechanism" that provoke the problems, it is up to Noel and his fiery friends to do some coding! ?

[Will.]

44 minutes ago, Prog Nut said:

Hi Will_Kaydo!

Citing the documentation link above, it says:

"To globally bypass plug-in upsampling
To globally enable/disable plug-in upsampling for plug-ins that already have upsampling enabled, click the Enable/Bypass Plug-In Upsampling button "2x" in the Control Bar’s Mix module. Upsampling is enabled when the button is lit."

To my understanding you have to both enable the "Upsample on Playback" in the drop down menu for the particular plugin, AND enable the "2x" button. Perhaps this is as a security measure for the plugins that don't work with upsampling at all, which you then can exclude from an otherwise fully "oversampling regimen"

My problem now, and I hope others can prove me wrong or show me what I am doing wrong, is that ONLY sidechaining evoke the "mal-sampling" problem. I have tested plugins from many (many!) developers that handles every type of upsampling. Even if I use both Cakewalks own upsampling simultaneously with the plugin's internal upsampling. No problem, no hiccups, no strange sound... until... Until I direct a sidechain to the plugin. Then, and only then, I have to disable "Upsample on Playback" for that particular plugin.

However, if it works the way you (Will_Kaydo) interpret this, the better! ? But reading the documentation forward and backward I am doubtful, but I still hope I am wrong...

And if it is the sidechaining "mechanism" that provoke the problems, it is up to Noel and his fiery friends to do some coding! ?

You don't need UPSAMPLING ON PLAYBACK enabled. The global X2 button is more than enough for this in todays world of music, plus the oversampling feature in your plugins (should they have one) are plenty enough.

Your just creating unnecessary problems for yourself, with this. I bet, if you ask anyone, they will tell you they have it off, because we have 96khz and higher sample rates. You want constant results? Remove upsampling on every plugin you have it enabled from that window. 

WK.