guitar noise removal alternative, clone track, invert phase?

[Sheens]

Hey Folks, surely already posted 1000 times...

I have a quiet guitar input signal (quiet power, guitar, no pedals etc) directly into RME PciE card.

Only when turning on (any) ampsim I get audible noise and couldn't get a good noise gate setting (Amplitube).

Tried to get a track with just the noise sound (by cloning the guitar track), then by inverting  phase trying to remove all the noise....but didn't succeed yet getting the clone being silent.

Just looking for some alternatives.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Sheens

[Byron Dickens]

1) Use a direct box to get the proper level in

2)  The Dime noise gate pedal in Amplitube is fantastic.

[bitflipper]

I use iZotope RX for this kind of thing. It works quite well. There may be a less-expensive but equally effective alternative out there but I'm unaware of any.

If this is a one-time problem, you can always download the fully-functional but limited-time demo of RX and use it for free for, IIRC, 30 days.

[Sheens]

1 hour ago, bitflipper said:

I use iZotope RX for this kind of thing. It works quite well. There may be a less-expensive but equally effective alternative out there but I'm unaware of any.

If this is a one-time problem, you can always download the fully-functional but limited-time demo of RX and use it for free for, IIRC, 30 days.

thanks Bitflipper,  awesome !

I don't 'need' it at all, also not anytime soon.

Just was thinking about a way to get a super clean guitar recording,  trying a way with phase invert, maybe sends etc to remove noise almost 100%.

In my situation 'all'  noise is at the input, not the instrument.

Will let you know if I succeed someday.

[bitflipper]

In that case, I'd concentrate on finding the source of the noise. From your OP it sounds like there is no significant noise if you don't use an amp sim. IOW, you can turn up the recorded audio without hearing too much extra noise. Maybe you're demanding too much gain from the amp sim.

Many amp sims inject noise to simulate both the white noise that tubes generate as well as the environmental noise that guitar pickups can pick up. Some of that might be avoided with a hotter signal going into the amp sim. Cakewalk's Gain control precedes the fx bin, so try increasing the track's gain and turning down the amp sim's gain. If that doesn't give you enough of a boost, grab a gain plugin such as the free one from BlueCat and insert that in front of the amp sim.

[Starship Krupa]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:08 PM, Sheens said:

I have a quiet guitar input signal (quiet power, guitar, no pedals etc) directly into RME PciE card.

You don't say what model RME you have, but the first question to ask is whether it has a Line/Instrument input jack. Although the guitar cable's 1/4" plug will fit the typical audio interface line input, you will get bad performance from plugging an electric guitar straight into a line input. A standard electric guitar's pickup doesn't output enough level to drive a line input, and a line input typically has a much lower impedance than an electric guitar wants to operate into. Both of these add up to low, noisy signal. The impedance mismatch can make the playing feel of the guitar weird, like you're trying to force the notes through the wire.

On 12/15/2021 at 8:46 PM, bdickens said:

1) Use a direct box to get the proper level in

We have a winner. The biggest issue is the impedance mismatch, so the thing is you need to plug your guitar into something that's made to accept an electric guitar output, and maybe give it a little boost, too. The most basic guitar preamp pedal will do.

[Sheens]

5 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

You don't say what model RME you have, but the first question to ask is whether it has a Line/Instrument input jack. Although the guitar cable's 1/4" plug will fit the typical audio interface line input, you will get bad performance from plugging an electric guitar straight into a line input. A standard electric guitar's pickup doesn't output enough level to drive a line input, and a line input typically has a much lower impedance than an electric guitar wants to operate into. Both of these add up to low, noisy signal. The impedance mismatch can make the playing feel of the guitar weird, like you're trying to force the notes through the wire.

We have a winner. The biggest issue is the impedance mismatch, so the thing is you need to plug your guitar into something that's made to accept an electric guitar output, and maybe give it a little boost, too. The most basic guitar preamp pedal will do.

thanks Erik !   I'll go through the manual of the RME AIO PciE card, possibly I should get a balanced input breakout assembly, but I need to check.

Currently I'm using the RCA/Tulip input that is on the unbalanced breakout set that ships with the Aio.

Thanks, I'll do some research now.

(fwiw, I found that with Sonar X3 cloning tracks with some plugins, you cannot completetely 'null' them by inverting phase, some other plugins do 'null' 100%.

 

 

[Starship Krupa]

An RCA input jack is almost certain to be a low impedance line input.

Before you purchase a breakout assembly, make sure that it has what you want, which is an instrument input suitable for guitar.

For instance, my PreSonus Firepods have 8 1/4" inputs on the front. 2 of them are mic/line/instrument and the other 6 are mic/line only. I can plug my guitar into the mic/line inputs, but it will have a low level and have that weird "low impedance load" feel when I play.

So you don't just need a 1/4" input, you need one designed to accept a guitar signal.

I suggest that you just buy a boost pedal like this one: https://smile.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Boost-Guitar-Effect-Pedal/dp/B07ZVZFLZ1/

Go to Amazon and search for guitar boost pedal and many will come up in the under $40 range. The Amazon Basics one is sold under a few different brand names.

It will take care of your level/impedance matching and be useful for other things as well, like overdriving the front end of an amplifier.

[Sheens]

1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

An RCA input jack is almost certain to be a low impedance line input.

Before you purchase a breakout assembly, make sure that it has what you want, which is an instrument input suitable for guitar.

For instance, my PreSonus Firepods have 8 1/4" inputs on the front. 2 of them are mic/line/instrument and the other 6 are mic/line only. I can plug my guitar into the mic/line inputs, but it will have a low level and have that weird "low impedance load" feel when I play.

So you don't just need a 1/4" input, you need one designed to accept a guitar signal.

I suggest that you just buy a boost pedal like this one: https://smile.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Boost-Guitar-Effect-Pedal/dp/B07ZVZFLZ1/

Go to Amazon and search for guitar boost pedal and many will come up in the under $40 range. The Amazon Basics one is sold under a few different brand names.

It will take care of your level/impedance matching and be useful for other things as well, like overdriving the front end of an amplifier.

Thanks Erik !  ? 

Lol !  Not long ago sold my analog gear incl. Diboxes (Radial w Jensen, Palmer, Samson Pro) and also my TC Electronic Rush boost pedal. 

This boost pedal actually removed most noise, but it made the sound way too brittle/bright.

Found my RME inputs are 10kOhm (balanced, unbalanced and expension board too).

(The 'nulling' out noise with recording a phase invert clone track probably never will work, as the noise is a dynamic/moving signal I guess)

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Sheens

[Starship Krupa]

On 12/18/2021 at 7:07 PM, Sheens said:

Found my RME inputs are 10kOhm (balanced, unbalanced and expension board too).

(The 'nulling' out noise with recording a phase invert clone track probably never will work, as the noise is a dynamic/moving signal I guess)

Too low an impedance load for magnetic guitar pickups, those are line inputs, so you either need a breakout with hi-Z instrument inputs or a direct box to go between your guitar and the inputs you have.

As far as doing tricks to reduce noise resulting from your tracks being recorded at too low a level, the solution to that issue is to not create the issue in the first place. Record a healthy, strong signal where the guitar's level is plenty far above the noise floor and you should be fine.

The noise-killing technique I use when I am stuck with a source that was poorly recorded is to use ReaFIR, a freeware plug-in that allows me to sample the noise profile in an otherwise silent part of the recording and then process the recording to reduce it. Used only in circumstances where I can't obtain a good audio capture.

[Byron Dickens]

23 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

the solution to that issue is to not create the issue in the first place.

Bingo.

Thus my direct box suggestion.

Most of the issues people struggle with fixing later on are better fixed in pre-production.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by bdickens

[Sheens]

thanks guys, I'm ok now.

my guitar goes into a TC Electronic GLT box, then balanced into RME AD-2 converter (input level -10) and spdif into the PCIe soundcard.

now loud/noiseless enough for me.

I never used the analog input of a PciE card before, maybe noise was mostly caused by low level, then balanced signal into unbalanced breakout cable...I don't know.

thanks for your suggestions and help !  

Edited December 30, 2021 by Sheens

[Starship Krupa]

1 hour ago, Sheens said:

maybe noise was mostly caused by low level, then balanced signal into unbalanced breakout cable

You have set up a very nice input stage indeed.

The input you were running into is designed for a hotter signal, so right there you were at a disadvantage.

It's always best to feed whatever input on your card/interface the kind of signal it expects. And with as few cable adaptors as possible.?

I get a red light when the adaptors start piling up, it can be a hint that there is a mismatch in the signal as well as the hardware. The Cakewalk Reference Guide suggests that you can run a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter to play your guitar into a computer's onboard mic connector. I tried to get them to take that out, but I think it's still in there. Big no-no.

[Sheens]

thanks Erik,

just want to close with my 20 bucks 'active D.I.'  (power adapter included) (box is normally used for long cables)

gave me enough level and a balanced line input. 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TeleportGLT--tc-electronic-teleport-glt-active-guitar-signal-transmitter

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Sheens