Roli is no more - not a deal

[TheSteven]

1 hour ago, sarine said:

I've been wanting to try a Seaboard for a while, but all these super-expressive controllers make me wonder how much would they actually add to the music.

Really all depends on what your trying to do... check out the LinnStrument video posted earlier.
For a lot of stuff, like if all you're doing is mimicking acoustic piano tracks, they're probably not worth the extra cost/hassle.

But for the right material - priceless.
Granted even for those cases if you had the correct controller knobs mapped out and could play the parts one handed then no real need.
Or if you'd rather spend hours or days adding/editing automation after you've recorded the basic part.
 

Edited September 5, 2021 by TheSteven

[kevin H]

For example check out 2:00 and 3:27 in video below.  Adds a total new level of realism.  But as TheSteven said it depends on material and music being produced.

 

[abacab]

1 hour ago, sarine said:

I've been wanting to try a Seaboard for a while, but all these super-expressive controllers make me wonder how much would they actually add to the music.

As has been mentioned, the actual benefit of MPE controllers probably depends on the material or instruments you are trying to mimic. Probably not much use with a virtual piano for example.

But when playing samples of non-keyboard instruments, the MPE controllers could really be useful for live performance, or for less post processing of recording sessions, and editing in articulations.

These controllers provide a means for expression beyond the 2 dimensional keyboard paradigm (note + velocity). I think Venus Theory nailed it when he explained that MPE allows a keyboard player to have similar expression control over all the notes under their fingers, such as a guitar player would on the fretboard.

A guitar player can bend each string in a chord independently, which is something that standard MIDI channel aftertouch or mod wheels cannot accomplish. All the standard MIDI notes are played on a common MIDI channel. With MPE, each MIDI note temporarily gets its own MIDI channel. A 3rd dimension, so to speak.

Opens new doors...

[sarine]

I use synths and sampled instruments, and I like most kinds of music (genres). I produce for myself and my own projects, and am unrestricted and open to everything, always looking for new things or ideas to benefit me.

Seaboard and Linnstrument have been on my "watchlist" for a while now, and I'm curious, albeit skeptical. Despite being a child of the digital age (Commodore 64, NES, etc.) and things like "chiptune" and FM synthesis being forever embedded in my soul, I'm somewhat old-fashioned - even conservative - when it comes to arts and crafts.

So here's a viewpoint from that background:

I've owned a handful of hardware units such as Ableton Push and Elektron Octatrack which I found interesting and acquired in hopes of increasing my productivity or creativity, and while I had a lot of fun with them, they had the exact opposite effect to what I had hoped for. For instance, Push was a fun instrument and I often woke up to the realization that I had spent two hours just improvising on the ingenious diatonic scale layout, finding all sorts of useful chord or melody patterns. Too often, I found, as I never actually made anything out of them, so that music lived and died there and then. Piano is not that different in this regard.

The thing is, when I'm working on the computer making music, the MIDI keyboard is not even that involved in the process. I use it most in the beginning phases when I look for chord progressions, melodies, modulations, and the most basic variations, but when I reach the point at which I suddenly know what's going on, my hands get glued to the mouse and keyboard and the MIDI keyboard becomes like the half-acquaintance you took advantage of and ditched after you got what you wanted, rather than a trusted companion. At this point I feel most creative and doing the boring clicking and clacking on the mouse and keyboard feels most productive, so much so that playing an instrument feels like a waste of time, because I already know what goes where. It's also the part that is most excruciating because when I say "boring" I mean it; my workflow is probably not the best, but out of every bag of tricks, gimmicks and gadgets, what it does best is: work.

I've never been successful at incorporating these fancy controllers or innovative workflows (e.g. Bitwig/Live type clip launching) into my own process and have always found them to ultimately slow me down. When I go back to doing things the dumb & tedious way in Cubase, I always get things done.

The demo video for Osmose is intriguing, and I can see the possibilities with these types of controllers. But again, it just looks like another thing to distract and slow me down, rather than accelerate my creative throughput. A lot of the effects can be programmed in using general MIDI, expression maps or the sampler track, to name a few. I can do the expressions with more precision than I could ever hope to expect from my fingers, and it doesn't take days, either.

I'm not downplaying how nice these "multi-dimensional" controllers are conceptually and I imagine live performers going crazy about this technology, I'm just pretty sure they would be a novelty toy and a ridiculously expensive productivity catalyst (rather than a driver) in my hands.

[abacab]

9 minutes ago, sarine said:

I'm not downplaying how nice these "multi-dimensional" controllers are conceptually and I imagine live performers going crazy about this technology, I'm just pretty sure they would be a novelty toy and a ridiculously expensive productivity catalyst (rather than a driver) in my hands.

Agreed. I think these MPE controllers would be mostly useful to performers, rather than composers or producers. If all you wanted to do was play and perform live, and not necessarily be productive otherwise, these things should bring great benefit to the player, increasing expression in "real-time", via x-y-z axis.  Something that cannot be done on a conventional keyboard.

Like this!

 

[kevin H]

For me, I used to play and record into my DAW.  Then I would spend way too much time drawing automation to add movement,etc . Since getting KK keyboard I now play and capture the knob movement live (basically performing live like abacab said) to get the sound I’m after.  I’m sometimes playing the keys and then using any free finger to turn knobs which sometimes can get difficult. So my hope is that with some of these new MPE controllers I can do more while playing without turning separate knobs.   

[abacab]

This Osmose is intriguing. It's only $1,800, and has an on-board synth, so it's actually a self contained hardware instrument. It can also be used as an MPE controller...

 

[abacab]

And $1,800 may sound like a lot today, considering the current retail price of cheap mass produced plastic controllers, but I'm pretty sure I paid that much for a Korg workstation back in the mid-90's.

So you are getting a lot more for your money today with something like this. If it meets your needs, of course!

[abacab]

Using Osmose as a MIDI controller, all options are available, including MPE!

 

[kevin H]

If anyone want to get osmose i just opened a franchise, taking orders hahha j/k .  I saw it and looked really cool.  I have a suspicion they will produce a midi controller only option at a lower cost.  They’ll probably work out kinks with this first mass produced version so second batch I think will be the sweet spot.  

[sarine]

3 hours ago, abacab said:

And $1,800 may sound like a lot today, considering the current retail price of cheap mass produced plastic controllers, but I'm pretty sure I paid that much for a Korg workstation back in the mid-90's.

So you are getting a lot more for your money today with something like this. If it meets your needs, of course!

I agree with this, the average quality of hardware is deplorable these days. I gladly pay more for quality, because you know how the sayings go; "the poor man can't afford to buy cheap" because "buy cheap, buy twice". Low quality tools make me really angry.

I'm cautious to buy anything that Jordan Rudess promotes, the man is so skilled and charismatic that whenever he shows up I deem it false-advertising. He could probably play scales on a triangle and make me buy one, and only when I open the box I remember how much I hate triangles.

[Zo]

The producer kits (with small keyboard ala seaboard) was actually fairly priced ... it was on my radar ...but never a priority ... sad but it s the reality of the market , majority are tight on money ... and even more nowdayz , people have to prioritise wisely purchases ...

so are they stoping any production ? Or they gonna focus on the beginner market ? 

[Radim Kolář]

20 hours ago, sarine said:

I've been wanting to try a Seaboard for a while, but all these super-expressive controllers make me wonder how much would they actually add to the music.

I considered buying it as pure entertainment stuff, but its too much bucks, so I waited till it gets cheaper.

[antler]

9 hours ago, Zo said:

The producer kits (with small keyboard ala seaboard) was actually fairly priced ... it was on my radar ...but never a priority ... sad but it s the reality of the market , majority are tight on money ... and even more nowdayz , people have to prioritise wisely purchases ...

so are they stoping any production ? Or they gonna focus on the beginner market ? 

From the article, looks like they're going to focus on the learner market: keyboards that light up to help people learn to play - along with a software subscription (kinda like Melodics, but keys only I guess).

It does hint that they might return to the pro-market one day. Not sure if they'll offer support for existing units at the moment though.

[kevin H]

I thought about getting Lumi at one point but people seemed to be having tons of issue so passed on it.  Maybe “learners” are less picky. 

[abacab]

15 hours ago, sarine said:

I agree with this, the average quality of hardware is deplorable these days. I gladly pay more for quality, because you know how the sayings go; "the poor man can't afford to buy cheap" because "buy cheap, buy twice". Low quality tools make me really angry.

Earlier this year, I finally decided to buy a decent 61-key controller, sturdy and with proper faders and knobs. It wasn't cheap, at over $500, and was out of stock everywhere, so I had it back-ordered for 2 months.  But it is likely one of the most well built units I have ever used. Metal framed and heavy, similar to an old school synth keyboard from the 90's. Wheels and everything else just work nice and smooth! Velocity and aftertouch feel accurate (the same keybed as their $2,499 analog synth, MatrixBrute).

And the fact that it's fully integrated with Arturia Analog Lab is a big bonus for me!

https://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid-synths/keylab-mkii/overview

Edited September 6, 2021 by abacab

[kevin H]

Definitely build quality has gone down in general.  Here is an example of someone doing a performance piece and piano had to be replaced after every show.

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by kevin H

[TheSteven]

44 minutes ago, kevin H said:

Definitely build quality has gone down in general.  Here is an example of someone doing a performance piece and piano had to be replaced after every show.

 

Yeah, this is the sad tale of a musician who didn't have the chops to elegantly finish his performance...



Edit:
He always really wanted to be a guitarist but could never master his axe...

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by TheSteven

[husker]

7 hours ago, abacab said:

Earlier this year, I finally decided to buy a decent 61-key controller, sturdy and with proper faders and knobs. It wasn't cheap, at over $500, and was out of stock everywhere, so I had it back-ordered for 2 months.  But it is likely one of the most well built units I have ever used. Metal framed and heavy, similar to an old school synth keyboard from the 90's. Wheels and everything else just work nice and smooth! Velocity and aftertouch feel accurate (the same keybed as their $2,499 analog synth, MatrixBrute).

And the fact that it's fully integrated with Arturia Analog Lab is a big bonus for me!

https://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid-synths/keylab-mkii/overview

I travel with the mini version of that.   Even the tiny one integrates so well with the V Collection 

[Fleer]

Same here. Quite handy.