Old story - volumes change with freeze - new rant

[Keni]

I sometimes feel as if it’s me, but making records of volume (read via peaks) before and after freeze shows the reality.

It is so annoying and the devices showing this each respond differently. What causes this? Not all suffer from this.

I wonder if I'll see a solution in my lifetime. Most I've gotten used to and remember how to re-adjust each, but some?

 

Right now I’m struggling with learning this with Superior Drummer 3 and hating it. I don’t think this is true, but it feels like each output varies differently? I’m shocked if that’s true but I've been too miffed to log the values yet. Just using ear...

[SVSX]

How big is the difference?

[Keni]

3 hours ago, SVSX said:

How big is the difference?

Seems to be 2-3db. Each synth varies. Obviously, most don’t. So far it seems the most common (and most difficult to deal with) are drum synths. Session Drummer, Addictive Drums (1&2), and Superior Drummer 3 all show this.

Another I am certain of is old, Vsampler3. It shifts ~2db

 

[Jaime Ramírez]

Yes... I expermented this issue with vst instruments multi outputs in MONO tracks.. The mono tracks will be 3db louder. And when bounce a stereo vst instruments in split mono tracks, the same results. With stereo tracks isn't happen. I prefer in multi outputs bounce in a stereo track (put in solo and make a bounce with the main output master). 

[Keni]

2 hours ago, Jaime Ramírez said:

Yes... I expermented this issue with vst instruments multi outputs in MONO tracks.. The mono tracks will be 3db louder. And when bounce a stereo vst instruments in split mono tracks, the same results. With stereo tracks isn't happen. I prefer in multi outputs bounce in a stereo track (put in solo and make a bounce with the main output master). 

Yes. That makes sense now though I believe it could/should be fixed.

Isn't 3db the popular panning change? Gain reduces 3db moving from center to edge (i may have it backwards.).

So that now explains a lot for me. I continually adjust my mono drum tracks (kick snare hat) by 3db after freezing. I’m using stereo outputs from the drum synth but processing them as mono, hence the 3db change. My other three drum outputs are stereo (toms ride crash) and after adjusting them along with the kit (after freezing), I progressively raise their volume the more I listen.

I'm now guessing if I process them as stereo (interleave) they may not change volume. Creates a bit of a pickle for me . I prefer my kick/snare/hat as point sources instead of stereo as I find they cut through a mix better. Toms are usually easy to handle in a stereo mixed output unless I want to use DAW processing instead of vst's internal stuff. Then I break each out individually but with 5 toms, thats a lot of faders on screen. It’s a tradeoff.. The ride is being supplied only as a stereo source so it has it's own stereo out and finally, all the crash cymbals spread in stereo as were the toms.

 

So to solve this I really need a way of creating a combination of mono stereo outputs from the drums or for the present of course I could use all mono (dual mono to handle the stereo tracks but it's so......analog! ?

[SVSX]

4 hours ago, Keni said:

Yes. That makes sense now though I believe it could/should be fixed.

Isn't 3db the popular panning change? Gain reduces 3db moving from center to edge (i may have it backwards.).

So that now explains a lot for me. I continually adjust my mono drum tracks (kick snare hat) by 3db after freezing. I’m using stereo outputs from the drum synth but processing them as mono, hence the 3db change. My other three drum outputs are stereo (toms ride crash) and after adjusting them along with the kit (after freezing), I progressively raise their volume the more I listen.

I'm now guessing if I process them as stereo (interleave) they may not change volume. Creates a bit of a pickle for me . I prefer my kick/snare/hat as point sources instead of stereo as I find they cut through a mix better. Toms are usually easy to handle in a stereo mixed output unless I want to use DAW processing instead of vst's internal stuff. Then I break each out individually but with 5 toms, thats a lot of faders on screen. It’s a tradeoff.. The ride is being supplied only as a stereo source so it has it's own stereo out and finally, all the crash cymbals spread in stereo as were the toms.

 

So to solve this I really need a way of creating a combination of mono stereo outputs from the drums or for the present of course I could use all mono (dual mono to handle the stereo tracks but it's so......analog! ?

That would  explain a lot. I'm not home, but i wanna do some testing, when i'm back. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by SVSX

[bitflipper]

Nothing's broken, it's just arithmetic.

Combining any two tracks, which is what happens when you convert stereo to mono, requires them to be summed. IOW, the left and right channels get added together, sample-by-sample. Whenever they are in phase, even briefly, you'll get a sum that's larger than either channel. 2 + 2 = 4, and there's nothing we can do about that.

Here's the easy solution. Most samplers, include SD3, let you choose between stereo and mono outputs. If you use a mono out for the kick, and route it to a mono track in Cakewalk, you've now got mono from start to finish and there will be no increase in peak levels when you freeze. Anything you want to have in stereo, such as overheads, goes to a stereo output to a stereo audio track. There will still be no rise in peaks as long as you're freezing a stereo track as stereo.

[Keni]

3 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Nothing's broken, it's just arithmetic.

Combining any two tracks, which is what happens when you convert stereo to mono, requires them to be summed. IOW, the left and right channels get added together, sample-by-sample. Whenever they are in phase, even briefly, you'll get a sum that's larger than either channel. 2 + 2 = 4, and there's nothing we can do about that.

Here's the easy solution. Most samplers, include SD3, let you choose between stereo and mono outputs. If you use a mono out for the kick, and route it to a mono track in Cakewalk, you've now got mono from start to finish and there will be no increase in peak levels when you freeze. Anything you want to have in stereo, such as overheads, goes to a stereo output to a stereo audio track. There will still be no rise in peaks as long as you're freezing a stereo track as stereo.

Thanks BF...

 

Yes. As soon as he mentioned the mono/stereo issue with this, I realized.

I could use the mono outs, but then I have to use dual mono for the stereo tracks. That’s something I don’t miss from the analog tape days ?

I guess I might try using stereo outs from the synth but assigning kick left and snare right and selecting respective discrete l/r choice for track input? I think I'll try that right now and see what I find?

 

[bitflipper]

Don't know if this will help, but here's how I normally set up SD3. Output channels are designated Kick, Snare, Toms, etc. Each of these goes to its own audio track. In the screenshot below, the kick is taken from the Left channel and routed to a mono audio track. Overheads and Room remain stereo.

 

[Keni]

1 hour ago, bitflipper said:

Don't know if this will help, but here's how I normally set up SD3. Output channels are designated Kick, Snare, Toms, etc. Each of these goes to its own audio track. In the screenshot below, the kick is taken from the Left channel and routed to a mono audio track. Overheads and Room remain stereo.

 

Thanks again BF...

Yeah, Mine are somewhat the same, but each final out remains stereo. I am about to setup the same scenario, but using each stereo output as two separate mono tracks via pan. I think that's what you're showing too, yes? Trying to achieve a combination of three mono and 3 stereo outs from SupD3....

Here I go!

[Keni]

So far, not done right. I tried simply assigning the track to use only one side of the stereo output as it's feed, but it must still be summing the two together as the volume still did the traditional 3db bump. So it looks as though it must be done within SupD3...

Trying now...

[bitflipper]

Make sure the audio track you're sending it to is set for mono interleave, then look at the frozen track and make sure it's still mono. If not, it may be because you've got a stereo plugin in its fx bin.

Once you have it all set up and working properly, save it as a track template so next time you won't have to mess with it at all.

[Keni]

5 minutes ago, bitflipper said:

Make sure the audio track you're sending it to is set for mono interleave, then look at the frozen track and make sure it's still mono. If not, it may be because you've got a stereo plugin in its fx bin.

Once you have it all set up and working properly, save it as a track template so next time you won't have to mess with it at all.

Thanks BF...

 

I always work with templates! ?

My tracks (the 3 mono ones) are set with mono interleave, but selecting a mono source for the track (Say SupD3's Out1Left) and freezing still changes. I just tried panning to one side within SupD3's mixer and the result is still the same. Though I can select L/R/Both in Cake's track source, the result is still changing.

So far I have been unable to discover a method of (inside the vst) changing it's outputs to mono where I wish. Such selection seems unavailable.... or maybe only possible if I originally insert SupD3 using all mono tracks which is not what I want, but just to discover, I will try...

 

This will take longer to setup and test...

 

 

[bitflipper]

Well, I suppose there could be a problem within SD3 that I've just never noticed.

Even if that's the case, you can still force mono within SD3 using the pan sliders. Note that SD3 gives you separate left and right sliders for every output channel. Put them both into the center and you've got mono out regardless of whether you use 1, 2 or 1 + 2. 

[Keni]

Nope...

 

Nothing I've tried yet gets around the volume change.

I just used all mono outputs when inserting SupD3 and configured them as three mono and three stereo tracks  (interleave) in cakewalk and it still changes volume.

I can't find a way to get SupD3 to have mono outputs in it's internal system. All outputs are always stereo???

I'm trying it again to see if I missed somethng.

[Keni]

2 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Well, I suppose there could be a problem within SD3 that I've just never noticed.

Even if that's the case, you can still force mono within SD3 using the pan sliders. Note that SD3 gives you separate left and right sliders for every output channel. Put them both into the center and you've got mono out regardless of whether you use 1, 2 or 1 + 2. 

Tried that earlier too, but it seems nothing stops SupD3 from having stereo outputs and combining the left/right when it freezws

[Keni]

Sad...

Doesn't appear to be any way to assign mono outputs from SupD3.... The output list has stereo pairs only... (not Cake mono/stereo, but outputs inside of SupD3)

It does offer Bus outputs as well, but they appear to be only stereo as well...

Edited September 5, 2021 by Keni

[bitflipper]

You should be able to select one side of the stereo output. Do you not see the same selections shown in my screenshot above?

[Keni]

8 hours ago, bitflipper said:

You should be able to select one side of the stereo output. Do you not see the same selections shown in my screenshot above?

Yes, I can. But nothing changes. The volume still does the 3db change. I think the problem here is within SupD3 . Not having mono outputs?

[bitflipper]

As I thought about this, a few dormant brain cells must have woken up because I suddenly recalled a vague memory of having the same problem long ago.

Google brought up this thread (by me) from 2010: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Somewhat-Solved-Superior-Drummer-3db-louder-after-freezing-m2028203.aspx Although we were talking about SD2 at the time, the symptoms are identical to what you're experiencing.

TL;DR the workaround I came up with back then:  freeze the track normally but then set the track interleave to stereo.