Using limiters on Mix busses?!

[Marcello]

Hi guys I still have a doubt to clarify.

There is a part of my song where the drums are more quiet and then an explosive part where they hit hard.

Since the drums were causing some peaks in the Master (hence I had to change the Master limiter Threshold resulting in the song not being as loud as my reference track but way less), mostly kick and snare, I placed a limiter on the drums bus in the mix.

Now what happened is that the volume of the snare is a bit lower than before in the explosive part and is sitting back in the mix, is not anymore slammed as it was.

Also basically in the quiet part of the song, the snare remained the same volume so quite ok for me, but in the explosive part is actually lower in volume compared to the quiet part!!!

This because the limiter is attenuating the snare transient in the explosive part while keeping it normal in the quiet part, result: a lower volume of the snare in the explosive part which is not good.

Raising the snare volume or increasing the compression won't change much because the limiter is stopping it from peaking.

So I don't know what to do here, if I don't put a limiter on my drums bus my overall volume of the master will not be as loud as my reference track because if I raise the Master Limiter Threshold down to increase the volume the drums transients will cause a gain reduction over 4  or 5 db or even more!

From my understanding in order to have a Loud Master without clipping and distorting, I should place limiters in the mix busses like drums or bass for instance so that the mix will sound louder but maintaining headroom for the master, correct? The problem is that if I use the limiter too much in the drums bus it results in what I just explained, so basically it mess up the song dynamic limiting the snare for instance where it should be slammed and not limiting it where is less slammed, so the snare gets low where is shouldn't be.

It's like a snake biting its tail.  Do I really have to choose between having an enough loud master (same volume lever as most of the songs) but having the snare sitting back in the mix, or having it slammed but the overall song volume is very much less loud compared to the songs out there?

Edited July 31, 2021 by Marcello

[Craig Anderton]

4 hours ago, Marcello said:

Do I really have to choose between having an enough loud master (same volume lever as most of the songs) but having the snare sitting back in the mix, or having it slammed but the overall song volume is very much less loud compared to the songs out there?

As far as I'm concerned, dynamics are a good thing, not a problem to be solved :)  In any event, the explosive drum part will determine how loud your master can be, and as you've found, the only way to change that is to limit the explosive part, which you don't want to do because then the overall volume isn't loud enough compared to your other tracks.

If you're planning to release with a streaming service, then if the other songs are above their target, they'll be turned down to have the same perceived volume as the song with the explosive drums. So it may not end up being an issue anyway.

If not, then you have to resort to workarounds to make the sections with the non-explosive drums sound subjectively louder. One way to do this is to automate EQ on the final mix by just a little bit, around 3.5 to 4 kHz (with a broad Q). Do this only in the parts that are softer, then "fade" it back to normal in the louder parts. The ear is more sensitive to this frequency range, so the music will seem louder. 

You can also try using a transient shaper on the explosive drums to bring down the peaks slightly, without having to use limiting. This may allow raising the overall level by a few dB. 

The real problem is that there will always be a tradeoff between dynamics and how "loud" you can make the music. In recent years, dynamics have been traded off for a louder perceived volume, because you can't have both.

[Marcello]

4 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

As far as I'm concerned, dynamics are a good thing, not a problem to be solved  In any event, the explosive drum part will determine how loud your master can be, and as you've found, the only way to change that is to limit the explosive part, which you don't want to do because then the overall volume isn't loud enough compared to your other tracks.

If you're planning to release with a streaming service, then if the other songs are above their target, they'll be turned down to have the same perceived volume as the song with the explosive drums. So it may not end up being an issue anyway.

If not, then you have to resort to workarounds to make the sections with the non-explosive drums sound subjectively louder. One way to do this is to automate EQ on the final mix by just a little bit, around 3.5 to 4 kHz (with a broad Q). Do this only in the parts that are softer, then "fade" it back to normal in the louder parts. The ear is more sensitive to this frequency range, so the music will seem louder. 

You can also try using a transient shaper on the explosive drums to bring down the peaks slightly, without having to use limiting. This may allow raising the overall level by a few dB. 

The real problem is that there will always be a tradeoff between dynamics and how "loud" you can make the music. In recent years, dynamics have been traded off for a louder perceived volume, because you can't have both.

Ok thanks for the suggestions.

SO basically I think I have to work on the mix rather than the master trying to use some tools to increase the volume of the drums that's causing the peaks without actually increasing the DBs of the track.

I have used a limiter on my drums bus, but still, is there any other plugin I can use for this purpose? Like a saturator maybe?

[Marcello]

20 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

As far as I'm concerned, dynamics are a good thing, not a problem to be solved  In any event, the explosive drum part will determine how loud your master can be, and as you've found, the only way to change that is to limit the explosive part, which you don't want to do because then the overall volume isn't loud enough compared to your other tracks.

If you're planning to release with a streaming service, then if the other songs are above their target, they'll be turned down to have the same perceived volume as the song with the explosive drums. So it may not end up being an issue anyway.

If not, then you have to resort to workarounds to make the sections with the non-explosive drums sound subjectively louder. One way to do this is to automate EQ on the final mix by just a little bit, around 3.5 to 4 kHz (with a broad Q). Do this only in the parts that are softer, then "fade" it back to normal in the louder parts. The ear is more sensitive to this frequency range, so the music will seem louder. 

You can also try using a transient shaper on the explosive drums to bring down the peaks slightly, without having to use limiting. This may allow raising the overall level by a few dB. 

The real problem is that there will always be a tradeoff between dynamics and how "loud" you can make the music. In recent years, dynamics have been traded off for a louder perceived volume, because you can't have both.

Sorry Craig just to show you

I have compared my master with the reference track I'm using (FLAC version),  I start understanding the problem here, look at the loudest part of the reference track (on TOP) and look at my mastered track (below). This is why is doesn't get loud enough like the reference track, do you see those spikes? peaks? Those are the snare and kick mostly, based on what you see what do you suggest?   I think I have compressed the drums enough, if I push the limiter more the snare basically disappears compared to the rest, it drawns below the other things. 

What would you suggest?

 

[bitflipper]

I'd suggest trying a few other reference tracks to get a broader view of what's out there in the world. How about one of the best-selling hard rock albums of all time, AC/DC's Back in Black? You may find it illuminating. It was mastered by Bob Ludwig, an industry legend who definitely knows what he's doing. Make sure you use the original, not one of the subsequent "remasters" (gotta wonder what kind of ego an ME has to have to think he can improve on Ludwig's work).

 

[Craig Anderton]

2 hours ago, Marcello said:

 What would you suggest?

Figuring out how to violate the laws of physics would be a good start ?

I already gave you suggestions on how to make the softer parts seem louder so that you can retain the dynamics you want. The other option is to have reduced dynamics. You can't retain dynamics while applying a process designed specifically to reduce dynamics.  

[Craig Anderton]

18 hours ago, Marcello said:

Ok thanks for the suggestions.

SO basically I think I have to work on the mix rather than the master trying to use some tools to increase the volume of the drums that's causing the peaks without actually increasing the DBs of the track.

I have used a limiter on my drums bus, but still, is there any other plugin I can use for this purpose? Like a saturator maybe?

A saturator will make the drums seem subjectively louder, but will also reduce peaks. I use saturation quite a bit on bass, and sometimes on drums.

[Byron Dickens]

Magic plug-ins aren't going to fix crappy mixes.

Edited August 1, 2021 by bdickens

[John Vere]

[bitflipper]

Hey, lighten up guys. I know neither of you are mean-spirited, but Marcello came here looking for advice and encouragement, not ridicule.

OP: what folks are trying to say is simply that yes, work on the mix first, then apply mastering as the final polish. 

[John Vere]

I wasn’t poking fun at anyone. I just can’t resist the turd polish VST. It’s saved my life many times. ✌️Marcelo is coming along nicely and as I said in the other thread I think he’ll probably get good at this someday. He’s asking good questions and getting good answers.
Making your own recording requires you wear many hats. Musician, recording engineer, tape op, mixing engineer, mastering engineer and finally delivering the final product to market or record label. 

[james rector]

I think what you are speaking of wanting is what is known as the "New York compression trick". I think to achieve this effect you send whatever to a buss and compress the snot out of it, and then feed that to the master, and have it real low in the back ground like you would reverb, then just route whatever as you would normally (say light compression) and keep it turned down well below clipping, this should give you a more solid sound, yet still dynamic and not too squashed.

[Wookiee]

Again we have started early in going down the wrong rabbit hole.

Tickets have been raised against this so I am locking it.